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owlwatcher
06-09-2004, 07:00 PM
Was this class of CV any good operating piston engine planes?

Since this class of ship was built to war needs.
Like; Iowa class frame
Alot of new AAA 76mm and 5".
Armoured flight deck This was able to handle heavier planes.
Might have seen combat winter 45-46.

The only reports negitive are
'crowded conditions'
Did this effect the size of the air group?
What would the air group look like in spring of 46?

owlwatcher
06-09-2004, 07:00 PM
Was this class of CV any good operating piston engine planes?

Since this class of ship was built to war needs.
Like; Iowa class frame
Alot of new AAA 76mm and 5".
Armoured flight deck This was able to handle heavier planes.
Might have seen combat winter 45-46.

The only reports negitive are
'crowded conditions'
Did this effect the size of the air group?
What would the air group look like in spring of 46?

SkyChimp
06-09-2004, 07:19 PM
ALL carriers were crowded. Carriers carried as many planes as they could. So describing it as crowded means little, since that term applied to all carriers.

Midway was a BIG carrier for its day. In excess of 59,000 tons. It was to carry 137 operational aircraft. That's 37 more than the Essex class was planned to carry.

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/halfstaff.gif

Fliger747
06-09-2004, 10:38 PM
The Midways's were really "post war", like the F8F in that they were not operational in any active theater before the close of hostilities. As such they incorporated some inprovements, the most notable being the armored flight deck and the ability to operate heavier aircraft. I spent a little time aboard the Coral Sea in the 60's and remember her well.

owlwatcher
06-09-2004, 11:38 PM
They broke up the Coral Sea in Baltimore MD.
About a month or so ago some bombs were found that they think came off the ship. Shut down the Beltway for quite some time.
The bombs had concrete in them.

Was just thinking what the air group would consist of in early 46 or so.
Also how many Take off and landing could be done.

tedinaz
06-10-2004, 08:04 AM
Actually, since Midway began her shakedown in 1945, we know what her airgroup consisted of. Airgroup 74 had four squadrons, VT, VB, VBF, and VF. SB2C-5's equipped the VT and VB squadrons, with 24 assigned aircraft. The VF and VBF squadrons were F4U-4, 36 each. Although designed to operate 137 aircraft, that number of the newer types proved in-efficient, and her shakedown airgroup had 120. By late 1946, the VT and VB squadrons had merged into what we now call the VA community, and VBF was dropped as a designator.

The first F8F squadron, for those of you wondeing where they were, was VF-19, "Satan's Kittens", and was enroute to the war zone aboard Monterey when the war ended. With a limited production run, F8F's weren't issued to all the CAG's, but may have been had the war continued into 1947.

Hope that helps,

Ted

Aztek_Eagle
06-10-2004, 09:25 AM
i got nose bleed

Fliger747
06-10-2004, 12:02 PM
Just a guess:

A problem with a large WWII aircraft airgroup would be in efficently operating them off of a carrier that size. Before angled decks it would appear that the rate of launch and recovery would be about the same per hour as an Essex.

Perhaps aircraft handling would be more effaceous. Certainly the ships size bought a lot of armor and ability to operate for extended periods. At the time they carried some 350,000 gal of Avgas.

ploughman
06-10-2004, 12:59 PM
Hmmm...All that aviation fuel would make a for a toasty fire.

I wonder what the damage modelling for the ships will be like in PF? What opportunity for secondary explosions from fuel, or ordnance, or prepped aircraft of the kind that did for the Jap carriers at Midway will there be?

It would really be something if you could aim for a particualr part of the ship, trying to inflict a particular sort of damage. Maybe we'll have to wait for the Oleg's Pacific War using the BoB engine for that sophisticated a damage model on objects though.

owlwatcher
06-10-2004, 03:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tedinaz:
Actually, since Midway began her shakedown in 1945, we know what her airgroup consisted of. Airgroup 74 had four squadrons, VT, VB, VBF, and VF. SB2C-5's equipped the VT and VB squadrons, with 24 assigned aircraft. The VF and VBF squadrons were F4U-4, 36 each. Although designed to operate 137 aircraft, that number of the newer types proved in-efficient, and her shakedown airgroup had 120. By late 1946, the VT and VB squadrons had merged into what we now call the VA community, and VBF was dropped as a designator.

The first F8F squadron, for those of you wondeing where they were, was VF-19, "Satan's Kittens", and was enroute to the war zone aboard Monterey when the war ended. With a limited production run, F8F's weren't issued to all the CAG's, but may have been had the war continued into 1947.

Hope that helps,

Ted<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Ted Just the kind of information I was digging for.
I know that if the CVs had seen action the air groups may have been different. I really think the Bearcat would have been onboard in the war zone.
I suspected that the launch and recovery rates were not much of an improvment over the Essex's.
Could not find the deck size.
Would like to compare width size between Essex and Midway classes.

The Midway class was sorta at the wrong time and place. Meant for WW2, but had to adjust to the cold war enviroment.
If it had not been for the armoured deck the ships would have almost had to be rebuilt from the keel up.
Still 137 planes onboard. That is a nice air group. Alot of replacments.

Doug_Thompson
06-10-2004, 03:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
ALL carriers were crowded. Carriers carried as many planes as they could. So describing it as crowded means little, since that term applied to all carriers.

Midway was a BIG carrier for its day. In excess of 59,000 tons. It was to carry 137 operational aircraft. That's 37 more than the Essex class was planned to carry.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That about sums it up. The U.S.S. Midway stayed on active duty from 1945 or whenever through the first Gulf War. That alone should answer any questions about how adaptable it was to different circumstances.

Let's put it this wey; it was probably much better at operating pistoned-engined aircraft than jets, which hadn't been in use when this carrier was designed.

As for overall efficiency, obviousl the armored flight deck would have made it a lot better for resisting kamikaze attacks. Ditto on the big battery of AA guns that were big enough to fire shells with proximity fuses. A big deckload of Bearcats would have made this one mean thing to deal with.


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Proud Charter Member of the Do-Do Birds Luftwhiners Chorus

tedinaz
06-11-2004, 12:24 PM
Owl:

Essex flight deck dimensions were 862X108
Midway 924X113

As far as launch rates, both ships launched single aircraft, using the deck run. So, essentially, rates were determined by crew efficiency, but in practice were about the same, ditto for landings, recovering one every 2 to 3 minutes. The advantage the larger deck bestows is safety in larger landing area, and longer take off run for a given strike group size. A larger deck also allowed a larger group to be positioned for launch, thereby increasing strike group size.

You'll recall that both Midways and Essexs' operated well into the cold war with modifications, so it would seem that the basic structural designs were quite adaptable.

Those of you in southern California have an opportunity to see for yourself, as the USS Midway museum opened this week.

www.midway.org (http://www.midway.org)

Hope that helps,

Ted

[This message was edited by tedinaz on Fri June 11 2004 at 11:57 AM.]

owlwatcher
06-11-2004, 03:16 PM
Thanks again TED
Had exhausted my referances. Plus asking What if's.
Got to get some new books.

What I thought the decks were about the same in width. The Iowa class frame was mean and lean. Seems CVs need some fat.
Maybe, we will see some Miday class CVs in the game.
With Iowa class BBs as escorts.
Another ?.
Armoured flight deck.
How much increase in plane weight did the armoured flight deck allow over the Essex CVs?
Keeping with the 1946 time line.

Did any of the planes benefit from this new weight limit?
Noticed the Corsair was filling the flight decks.
Just wondering.

owlwatcher
06-11-2004, 03:49 PM
Good read on status of US Navy late 45
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/cno/cnorpt_3.html#ships

Latico
06-11-2004, 04:02 PM
You can find info on most Naval vessels at this site.

Haze Gray and Underway (http://www.hazegray.org)

IV_JG51_Razor
06-11-2004, 05:12 PM
As far as plane weight is concerned, the Navy, while desparately trying to compete for those few post war defense dollars, actually based Lockheed P2Vs aboard Midway class CVs as their nucular strike aircraft a la Doolittle. They were even progressing with FCLPs and fitting a tail hook on one when North American introduced the AJ Savage. I doubt the armoured decks needed any strengthening for either of these planes to operate from their flight decks.

Razor
IV/JG51 Intelligence Officer
www.jg51.net (http://www.jg51.net)

"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgement"

Fliger747
06-11-2004, 07:45 PM
The Midway's used the steam power plants that were intended for the cancled Montana BB's. On the finer carrier hull their 220,000 SHP was enough to drive these ships at 33 kts. During WWII the US navy led the world in high pressure, high temperature steam plant technology. Even into the 60's these were considered desireable power units. The Unfinished Iowa BB, Kentucky contributed her power plants to two newly built Sacremento class AOE's.

mllaneza
06-11-2004, 09:46 PM
The Midway's may have been well designed and very adaptable, but a friend who did a tour in her Marine detachment wasn't thrilled with the accomodation. He says he lost six inches of headroom in his bunk because the deck above was sagging.

Veteran - Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force. 1993-1951.

SkyChimp
06-11-2004, 10:10 PM
Midway was heavily modified throughout her life. She got an enclosed bow, and angled flight deck and new superstructure.

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/halfstaff.gif

Fliger747
06-11-2004, 10:17 PM
The Midway and Coral Sea were WWII ships for all intents and had habitability as was the US standard for that period. Read crowded by modern standards, racks 3-4 high, small gym type lockers etc. One can count on the fact that the Marine detachment was probably given the least desireable bunking on the ship! By comparison to earlier ships such as the Lex and Sara, or any foreign ship, they were "luxurious".

In 1980's

Coral Sea: 900' WL (1003.6' OAL)
48,000 tons light, 65,200 full load
beam 121'
212,000 shp/ 32 kts.

The Midway had bulges added to the hull in 1986 to improve stability, with bad results. On sea trials she was reported to roll uptoten degrees at nine knots in 4-6 foot seas!