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View Full Version : Oleg an idea: Battleship + Arado fliable



269GA-Veltro
12-30-2003, 01:53 AM
What do you think about possibility to take off from a battleship in a recognition mission. Is possible?

269GA-Veltro
12-30-2003, 01:53 AM
What do you think about possibility to take off from a battleship in a recognition mission. Is possible?

F19_Olli72
12-30-2003, 04:50 AM
I doubt that will ever happen, though i would like it a lot to have the Arado 196 flyable. But for it to be used correctly Oleg & Co would have to model a working catapult on a ship, wich i doubt they ever will, since they said there never will be carriers in FB either.

[This message was edited by Olli72 on Tue December 30 2003 at 04:04 AM.]

Fennec_P
12-30-2003, 05:30 AM
Oleg said that new code would have to be written to allow carrier ops, not that they were impossible.

It's possible we may yet see it in a future addon.

Majesty5K
12-30-2003, 08:09 AM
I'm about half-done with the Ar 196 cockpits but they are on hold due to lack of references. If somebody can get me to Bulgaria with a tape measure and a digital camera, I could have them finished in three weeks.

Realistically, chances are slim to none that the the '196 will be flyable. It won't be anytime soon.

IV_JG51_Razor
12-30-2003, 06:28 PM
Too bad Majesty, I'm sure a lot of folks were looking forward to that. Here is an excerpt from a post of mine in another forum:

"I'm all for as much realism as we can get in these flight sims, particularly when it comes to the FM, but not to the exclusion of some types just because there isn't enough information to complete a totally accurate cockpit. More than half of the folks flying in IL-2:FB wouldn't know a magneto switch from a cowl flap lever, so I don't see the need for such fanatic adherence to totally accurate cockpits. Having said that, as a pilot myself, I really appreciate the extent to which Oleg has gone to recreate some of these planes."

I really do feel that way, so it frustrates me to hear that the Arado won't make it anytime soon just because you don't have the exact measurements for some of the knobs, dials, and switches
in the cockpit. OH well, keep after it Majesty.

Razor
IV/JG51 Intelligence Officer

"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgement"

Majesty5K
12-30-2003, 10:58 PM
Actually it's not a matter of knobs, dials, and switches, though there are some data plates on the instrument panel that are indecipherable in photographs.

The real problems are that I have no idea what the cockpit sidewalls and floor really looked like and how they related to the aircraft's structure, what sort of equipment was on those sidewalls (there we're talking exact dimensions and shape), and what the whole aft section of the aft cockpit looked like from the gunner's POV. About 50% of the crew's environment is a total mystery to me. It's a little worse than just knobs and switches. I can extrapolate a bit from some photos I have from NASM, but they are subject to distortion, and the same piece of equipment can work out as being totally different when built using two different close-range photographs as reference.

Like I said... I need an hour at the Bulgarian National museum of Aviation with a digital camera, tape measure, and notebook. That's all.

Edit: You folks should know that as much as you may want the Ar 196 flyable, NONE of you want it as badly as I do. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It's hard to describe what it's like to work on an airplane and give it over to Oleg, and then see it in the game... It's a small thing in the Big Picture of life, but it's still a great feeling, and I'd like to have the ultimate experience of FLYING something I helped create in the game. Realistically, though, I think that'll happen wiht the J2M3 long before the Ar 196A-3. I'm still hell-bent on the Arado being the first flyable seaplane in the game, it'll just take a lot longer than anticipated... We shall see. Insh'Allah.

[This message was edited by Majesty5K on Tue December 30 2003 at 10:11 PM.]

IV_JG51_Razor
12-31-2003, 12:21 AM
Well, I wish you good luck. I can only imagine what it would be like to have a creation of your own in this game, and I'm sure it would be terrific! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Razor
IV/JG51 Intelligence Officer

"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgement"

-HH-Dubbo
12-31-2003, 01:57 AM
There's gotta be someone in Bulgaria who can help. Do they have a Bulgarian forum? Calling anyone in or around Plovdiv....anyone?

We just need to get Majesty or someone inside this girl with a camera and tape measure.
http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/nightschpanker/arado196.jpg
Does anyone speak Bulgarian? Maybe you could email the staff there. At least one of 'em has to be a fan.

It only funny 'til someone loses an eye.........

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/nightschpanker/xp47h-2-t_boltwithinlineengine.jpg

zoomar2
12-31-2003, 11:41 AM
I presume the same problems which prohibit carriers (collision modelling?) would prohibit catapult launches. Anyway, if we could do this, there already are flyable planes in this game which were catapulted from merchants - The Hurricane!

-HH-Dubbo
12-31-2003, 12:11 PM
Actually, if you want the catapult experience, Poymando did a fantastic little campaign called
Fleet Air Arm Mini Campaign. Really good and definitely worth checking out. Available here

http://mudmovers.com/Sims/FB/fb_campaigns.htm

It only funny 'til someone loses an eye.........

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/nightschpanker/xp47h-2-t_boltwithinlineengine.jpg

BerkshireHunt
12-31-2003, 01:40 PM
Majesty- you've probably seen this site which shows what's on offer at the Bulgarian Aircraft Museum: http://www.plovdivcityguide.com/Airport/index.html
There's no e-mail address but there is a telephone number (Bulgaria) Tel. 27 3171. I'm sure they must have an English speaker who could take some digital photographs for you.
Alternatively, you may recall 'Andrew' who posts at SimHQ from Sofia. He is a programmer and IIRC was responsible for early translations of the Russian user interface for Newview into English. Why not put out a request to him at SimHQ to see if he can assist? He's a bright guy and (I believe) a Bulgarian national. Clint Ruin may be able to contact him on your behalf as I know he's been involved with Newview.

BerkshireHunt
12-31-2003, 03:24 PM
One other thought-I have a book (Warplanes of the Luftwaffe, page 10) which features a superb perspective cut- away line drawing of the Arado 196- all interior structures are shown including the front and rear cockpits. It's by John Weal, the renowed colour profile artist, fluent German speaker and author of several Osprey books on German aircraft.
He is a real enthusiast on German aircraft subjects and must have done a great deal of research on that cut- away of the Ar196 before lifting his drafting pen. Why not contact him to see if he can help? No point re- inventing the wheel; aviation artists are fanatical about detail and keep great libraries of information on favoured subjects. From his jokey writing style I'd say he's a nice guy too (see 'Bf109 Aces of the Russian Front').
I don't have an e-mail for Weal himself but I'll bet his publisher does: tony.holmes@osprey-jets.freeserve.co.uk

Majesty5K
01-01-2004, 10:11 AM
Wow, thanks for the leads, maybe this place isn't a total snake-pit after all http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BerkshireHunt, I have a large-format digital copy of that drawing. It's for an Ar 196A-5, and it is helpful in a general sense, but I need really nit-picky fine detail, like (for example) how wide the floor plates were (or if they were even there, some Ar 196's didn't have them!), what all was mounted on the frame in the back and exactly where, etc. For modeling, a general drawing like that is helpful up to a point; it tells me there was a floor. But then the photographs can tell you what color it was, how big, where the edges were, rivets, patterns, plating, texture, etc. All that meaty visual stuff that gives the realism.

I didn't know John Weal could potentially be contacted though. Like you said, maybe he has references for that drawing that I've never seen! Thank you greatly...

BerkshireHunt
01-01-2004, 09:08 PM
Majesty- anything's worth a try so I've done a bit of digging.

This site (updated just a few days ago) has good colour photographs of the two Arado 196s in the USA- both A5s:http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/

This is a cut and paste from it:

Ar 196A-3
Second photo 0219 Bulgaria (on public view). White 3 Museum of Aviation and Air Force, Plovdiv, Displayed in Bulgarian markings. Engine BMW 132 KR, W.Nr 75526

Ar 196A-5 623167 USA (research accessible - may be seen by serious researchers with prior permission) PO+HG T3+BH Ex Prinz Eugen, NASM, Paul Garber Collection

Ar 196A-5 623183 USA (currently being restored) T3+CH Ex Prinz Eugen, NAS Willow Grove now transported to Naval Air Station Pensacola for restoration. Was damaged during transport!

Ar 196A-2 Norway PVD 6W+?N Aircraft Historical Museum, Sola, raised from Blücher, (only fuselage frame)

I assume the interiors of the A3 and A5 are not that different?
OK, so this site (http://www.maintour.com/northflr/pscnas.htm) gives a public contact number [(850) 452-2311] for NAS Pensacola 'base information' which might get you in touch with whoever is doing the restoration of the Ar196A5 which was taken there. If it isn't being done by Naval Air Station staff it must be under the auspices of the National Museum of Aviation which is also based there- I'm sure someone would point you in the right direction.
I don't know if it's convenient but perhaps you could visit the NASM Paul Garber machine to take some photographs and measurements yourself?

Finally, this site: http://www.luftfahrt-archiv-hafner.de/ offers Ar196 handbooks and technical documents for sale:

Ar 196
D(Luft)T 391/2a, Bordfunkanlage mit FuG V aU, Schalt- und Prüfunterlagen, 1940, . (Radio control-unit, specification and test documents) 19.euros

Ar 196 A-1, A-2
LDv 844a, Beschreibung, Betriebs-,Wartungs-und Prüfvorschrift der Bordfunkanlage, 1939, 65 euros

Radio control-unit, specification, test document 23.euros

Ar 196 A-3
D(Luft)T 2196, Handbuch, 1942, 480 S. Handbook 96.euros

Ar 196 A-4
LDvT 2196 A-4/Fl, Bed.-Vorschrift-Fl, 1941, 64 euros.

Operating direction 18.euros

Ar 196 A-5 D(Luft)T 2196, Handbuch, 1943, 72 S. Handbook 24.euros

Ar 196 A u. B
LDv 391, Handbuch, 1939, 490 S. Handbook 91.euros

Majesty5K
01-02-2004, 09:55 AM
I wrote to NAS Willow Grove and the Naval Aviation museum both about a year ago. Willow Grove never responded, and NAM basically said that they weren't going to help me at all. I did get a very nice answer to a research request at the NASM which supplied me with black and white copies of about 20 photos, which I used to model about half of the cockpits. Prints would have cost me $20 apiece which is out of my price range, but the copies were pretty good.

As for Luftfahrt Archiv Hafner, I have the manuals for the Ar 196A-3 and A-5 both sitting on my shelf, plus the guides for handling, maintenance, and radio work. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I also have books from Schiffer, Wydawnictwo Militaria, Chris Goss' book on Luftwaffe Seaplanes, one copy of Air somethingorother #4 from the 70's, collected drawings, and various printouts of things I found on the internet.

Really the only reference source I know of that hasn't been exploited is Bulgaria. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BerkshireHunt
01-03-2004, 11:22 PM
OK.
What about this: the Osprey book 'Hungarian Aces of World War 2' (written by Gy¶rgy Punka) was illustrated by Stephan Boshniakov. Mr Boshniakov is described as "an aviation researcher based in Sofia. He has done work in the past for the Bulgarian Aviation Museum."
So he must have good contacts there. If Tony Holmes at Osprey can provide an address for him (or maybe Gyorgy Punka in the first instance) he might be receptive to helping out in some way. As an illustrator he's bound to be impressed by FB's graphics if he hasn't seen them before.
Tony Holmes is at the above e-mail address, Osprey's general enquiries address is info@ospreypublishing.com

A long shot is http://www.fmi.uni-sofia.bg/sky/ a site created by Bulgarian tutors and students at Sofia University who have an interest in aviation. They invite comments by e-mail- maybe one of them hails from Plovdiv and could get inside that A3?

BerkshireHunt
01-03-2004, 11:44 PM
Judging by this: http://www.dropbears.com/cgi-bin/uk_books/uk.pl?input_templates=1&input_mode=books_uk&input_string=Slovakia+History
Stephan Boshniakov knows John Weal- so find one you find them both.

Platypus_1.JaVA
01-04-2004, 04:54 AM
Apart from the fact that recon missions are EXTREMLY boring, especially above sea.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/index.php

Fennec_P
01-04-2004, 06:16 AM
AR-196 was also for air defense.

Like when one was launched from the Bismarck in an attempt to shoot down a PBY.

Majesty5K
01-04-2004, 11:49 AM
Wow, thank you for all these leads. I hadn't thought of authors or illustrators... I did mail one guy who wrote an article in Aviation History last summer but he couldn't help.

Sure, recon missions are boring, but add in a pair of 50kg bombs and go submarine hunting or attacking shore installations, or use the pair of 20mms to fend off fighter attacks or hunt other recon aircraft, and now you've got some gameplay. Quirky gameplay, and maybe not thrilling for everybody, but I didn't choose the '196 for no reason. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

necrobaron
01-04-2004, 01:18 PM
I agree. I wouldn't mind doing recon missions and the like. I'd welcome the change of pace from strictly dog-fighting or bombing. The 196 isn't the only plane that filled that role,but it looks like it's the only one we have a chance of actually getting flyable(or even in the gamehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). M5,these boards aren't a total loss(yet); you just have to weed out the bad ones.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

BerkshireHunt
01-04-2004, 01:22 PM
Majesty- I may have hit paydirt (I emphasize the 'may').
The Osprey books say John Weal helps his German wife run a small technical translation agency. This site http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:FwoLksnzN9wJ:www.german-embassy.org.uk/Ubersetzerliste_1.pdf+translation+german+english+w eal&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 provided by the German embassy in London shows the addresses of a number of small, independent translators, one of whom is an 'Elke Weal'.

This is the interesting bit:

VOM ENGLISCHEN INS DEUTSCHE / ENGLISH INTO GERMAN
Elke C. Weal
Deep-Dene
High Road
Cookham
Berkshire
SL6 9JF
UK
Tel: 016285 20006

Bei den œbersetzern handelt es sich nicht um vereidigte œbersetzer. Eine Garantie für die Qualit¤t der œbersetzungen kann von Seiten der Botschaft nicht gegeben werden. Please note that the German Embassy cannot take any responsibility for the quality of the translations done by a translator on this list. Ohne Gew¤hr (Stand Mai 2003)

(The fact she is in Berkshire is pure coincidence!)

Maybe a polite letter to her enquiring whether she knows or is in contact with the illustrator John Weal would be the place to start?

There is a website for the Sofia telephone directory (re Stephan Boshniakov) but it is in cyrillic and unintelligible as far as I'm concerned. Still, if you find John Weal I'm hoping he may be able to put you in touch with Boshniakov.

BerkshireHunt
01-06-2004, 03:59 PM
To bump or not to bump- that is the question. Aww what the hell.

Kahvikuppi
01-07-2004, 11:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Majesty5K:
(Majesty wrote)"...You folks should know that as much as you may want the Ar 196 flyable, NONE of you want it as badly as I do. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It's hard to describe what it's like to work on an airplane and give it over to Oleg, and then see it in the game... It's a small thing in the Big Picture of life...".

*Dear Majesty. Aren´t you exaggerateing a bit the "Big Picture of life"? I don´t know about all of you, gentlemen, but I prefer the virtual picture of life to the real picture of life - at least most of the time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.
If you could ever finish the Arado, I wouldn´t know how to thank you - and Oleg´s battalion - enough. Ar 196 has been one of my favorit airplanes for - do I dear to say - over 30 years! I promise that I wouldn´t be crying for the launching. I could take off from anywhere or begin inflight. I don´t mind.
Thumbs up for You!

[This message was edited by Majesty5K on Tue December 30 2003 at 10:11 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>