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View Full Version : Serious Poll (for once!) about the X45/52



Jetbuff
05-13-2004, 09:05 PM

Jetbuff
05-13-2004, 09:05 PM

LW_lcarp
05-13-2004, 09:11 PM
X-45 and CH rudder pedals

"If winning isnt everything why do they keep score"
Vince Lombardi

steve_v
05-13-2004, 09:18 PM
After learning the rocker rudder, I got CH Pro Pedals. Go figure.

georgeo76
05-13-2004, 09:28 PM
I use the pedals too, Can't imagine going back to the twist stick, but would prefer that over the rocker

609IAP_Recon
05-13-2004, 09:39 PM
ch pro pedals with x45 throttle is the way to go for me (with ms ffb2 stick)

Salute!

IV/JG51_Recon

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LeadSpitter_
05-13-2004, 09:40 PM
the only good pedals i tried are $500,

http://www.avsim.com/pages/0503/pfcpedals/pfc_pedals.html

I had the ch pro pedals which are to close together and more like gas pedals. They are also so cheeply made and dont have enough tension for me.

For this game pedals are much better becuase of the aircraft with no centered rudder, germans line up to the right, vvs to the left and us and brit centered. so with the pedals its alot better for keeping your aircrafts ball completely centered and making your aircraft a hell of alot faster. However with a twist stick you could perform some insane manuevers you cant with pedals its also alot quicker for aiming for me anyways

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WUAF_Badsight
05-13-2004, 09:47 PM
there is no :

"twist rudder is superior for gaming" option

the new Saitek X52 will probably be the best stick youll be abel to buy

arcadeace
05-13-2004, 09:49 PM
How bout: I don't own an X-45 or X-52 yet but think the twist stick is the better solution http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Actually, I've enjoyed twist but I know I could get used to the rocker just fine - each has advangages. I don't plan on purchasing either Saitek stick.

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Jetbuff
05-13-2004, 09:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
there is no :

"twist rudder is superior for gaming" option<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Look again, options 2 and 4 pretty much says as much so long as you are, as stipulated in the original post, either an owner or owner-to-be of an X-45/52.

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Duff4r
05-13-2004, 10:19 PM
Agree! The rudder rocker on the X-36/45 is just fine for those with large hands! I couldn't use it very well and added CH Pro Pedals.

Twisty sticks have a tendency to add unintended rudder inputs as your banking.

I would have preferred to see the X52 keep the Rudder Rocker but make the throttle handle smaller in diameter.

I'm now using all CH USB HOTAS and Pedals.

S 8
05-13-2004, 10:21 PM
What is rudder rocker exactly?

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/113_1084389618_ww2new.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
05-13-2004, 10:27 PM
I stayed away from X-mn sticks cos I tried the rockers and twisty sticks and they have like no travel. The rockers felt like on-off switch you rock back and forth with only two positions--ON and OFF lol. So I got cheap racing pedals today and am Happy.

I have this 15$ WalMart's Saitek Grapite joystick with the largest travel of any joystick made. Largest solid base ever made for a joystick. And one of the best throttles ever made. And the *best* largest most perfectly placed buttons ever made for a joystick...not many but I don't need many. I also put the little half-ball plastic sticky bumpers on the three buttons and it helps (also have them on my mouse buttons).

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:
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hobnail
05-13-2004, 11:11 PM
Rudder rockers better than twisties.

CH pedals better than either http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif so I don't have a problem in this respect if I move up to the X52.

SithSpeeder
05-13-2004, 11:24 PM
I could never get used to the rocker on my X-45. I got CH Pro pedals soon thereafter (ebay for $80) and never looked back! The immersion factor is clearly better without the rocker OR the twist--get pedals period.

But otherwise, twist is easier than rocker. I used the rocker as a way to swivel my view to the back left or back right--that worked pretty well (even set it up incrementally so that a partial deflection of the rocker would let me look out with graduated views). But then I got TrackIR2. Now, I just use the rocker for changing mixture control (i.e., I don't use it much).

I think having a force feedback option would have been nice, though. Anyone seen the price tag on the new 52?

* _54th_Speeder *

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GAU-8
05-13-2004, 11:35 PM
i couldnt really get into the twisty type, as stated before, an extra axis (for a total of 3) on one stick was too much to control at once for me to fly correctly in a turn (while in aggressive action)

rocker is a bit to get used to and unexacting at first, but if you go thru the programming, you can band it to a better degree than what you had.

its a shame they got rid of it.... just to have that function could still be useful alongside the twist action... should have kept it for whatever reason that we could use it for.

Korolov
05-13-2004, 11:49 PM
If you don't play strictly fixed wing flight sims, it's hard to use the rocker on any throttle. I tried it before and it made my hand sore, as well as not being as precise as a twisting stick. Can't justify the expense for rudder pedals, either.

A twisting stick gives you a third degree of control all centralized on one device - for some of us, it's very awkward; but for others it plays out just fine.

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Jetbuff
05-13-2004, 11:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hobnail:
Rudder rockers better than twisties.

CH pedals better than either http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif so I don't have a problem in this respect if I move up to the X52.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No argument here. I just can't afford to splurge $150 USD on top of everything else for rudder pedals. In the absence of rudder pedals, I find the rocker far superior to a twisty stick where unintentional inputs can ruin your day.

http://members.rogers.com/teemaz/sig.jpg

Jetbuff
05-14-2004, 12:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Superluminal:
What is rudder rocker exactly? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is basically a rocking (side-to-side) axis on the bottom of the X-45's throttle handle. You use it by gripping the throttle handle and rocking it right to left with the tips of your fingers as they wrap around it.

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T_O_A_D
05-14-2004, 12:10 AM
can't vote

I think they should of made it with both. Twist and rocker . so you have a choice. I have pedals and now use my rocker to change from left to right engines I like this way. Too bad it will be gone in next version.

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Jetbuff
05-14-2004, 12:13 AM
Well, if you had to use either the twist or the rocker for rudder control, which would you choose? Assume your pedals broke or something... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

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LEXX_Luthor
05-14-2004, 12:15 AM
Try some cheap racing pedals. I got some today for 40$ at Circuit City. They said if I am not Happy bring it back. I'm keeping them. Make sure you get pedals that are equal stiffness both left and right. I'd rather have the expensive "flight sim" rudder pedals though but not now. $http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif$ The only hassle so far is you gotta use the wheel for connection and stuff it away. Don't pay for Force Feed wheel cos you don't use the wheel anyway.

-- oh, and I didn't use the software CD that came with it. Works fine without it. Fire up and go. May have to manually set joystick settings in FB "conf" file thought, I had to tonight but my stick is back to normal.


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:
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El Turo
05-14-2004, 12:54 AM
I had used both pedals (old school TM-Elite pedals) and twist-input (Saitek Cyborg Gold)... and then bought the X45 and was horrified by the rocker-rudder thing. I even tried to tough it out for a few weeks and was never satisfied with the limited range or lack of fine-control.

The twisty stick was preferrable to the rocker arm only because it gave better total fine control (albeit not much better). The CH Pro Pedals I have now are magnitudes of order better in control and coordination than either the rocker or the twisty.

Jetbuff, I'm actually pretty suprised that a pilot like yourself would prefer the rocker arm... or maybe moreso that you don't have pedals?

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Jetbuff
05-14-2004, 02:14 AM
H_Butcher, I would love to have proper pedals - and not just for the control but also the immersion. I even considered Lexx's idea of getting racing pedals but gave up on that. I've eyed the CH pro pedals balefully for quite a while now. Unfortunately, at the moment I'm back on a student budget so I can't splurge like I used to.

So, in the absence of pedals I find the rocker to be a much more controllable input device than a twist-stick. It is way too easy to twist the stick inadvertently during the aiming "death-grip". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So yes, in the absence of pedals, I find the rocker the lesser of two evils.

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Raul_TT
05-14-2004, 02:40 AM
I prefer the twisty. I used to have a Thrustmaster afterburner II which had both rocker and twisty I tried using the rocker first but after a few flights I realized that the twisty allowed for a higher degree of control,having a little bit more travel, so I stuck with the twisty. Recently the throtttle of my ABII started becoming unstable and giving spikes. So I debated long and hard on how to replace it. I looked at the X-45 and was really tempted but decided against it because of the rocker. I opted for a CH pro Throttle USB and a Cyborg Evo. Both are great products individually it is just a bit of a shame that you can't get the CH programing software to see the stick and program it. So now that I see that the X-52 is coming out with a twisty I am bit annoyed that I didn't wait, because it really looks awesome.

Uber_Numpty
05-14-2004, 02:58 AM
I didn't like the rocker rudder much so saved up me penneez and got ch pedals. Twist rudder was better but you did get too many accidental inputs and strange pains in the arm from the contortions involved.

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Dunkelgrun
05-14-2004, 04:27 AM
Love the X-45 but couldn't get on with the rocker, so had to splash out on pedals. The pedals up the immersion but if the X52 had been available I wouldn't have bought them.
Cheers!

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BM357_TinMan
05-14-2004, 05:10 AM
My response isn't up there.

I own a X45 and never use it because of the sorry spring return thingy. The idea probabaly would have work if they would have made the angle steeper or something, but as it is, it doesn't work well at all.

I would consider buying an ?x52? or whatever it is if it was Force Feedback, or at the very least, the return mechanism was fixed.

One other issue, why the hell don't they make the throttle a stand alone usb (like the CH Pro throttle), so that you can buy/use the throttle without having to buy and have the stick plugged in? I don't understand stupidity like that (i.e. making the throttle plug into the stick so that you can't just buy/use the thottle by itself).

Anyway, that is what I think of the x45/52

BM357_TinMan
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Arm_slinger
05-14-2004, 07:33 AM
I dont have a Saitek at all, but if its not too pricey, then i'll get the 52 as i get on well with twist sticks

242Sqn_Kye-
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ampadgog
05-14-2004, 08:58 AM
i prefer the twist. never could apply the rudder i wanted to make a long shot with my x45. therefore i hail for the twist. besides one can disable it. the only things i cant understand about x52 are:
a) what operation does the switch where the M1-3 switch was in X45 does, and how many possisions does it have? for example if i switch it from point 1 to point 2 will it be like pressing one button on my keyboeard? will it chainge the mode? or will it be like the hatred auxilary switch the x45 had? i really wish i will have the chanse to use it for chainging the mods on lomachttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

b) does it or doesnt it have force feedback??

thanks you for ur time

BaldieJr
05-14-2004, 09:01 AM
Map rudder to the thumb-slide on the X52 throttle.

I would imagine thats exactly why they added another axis there, so people could us it as a rudder if they wanted to.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
Specs:
More expensive than the dining set.
Less expensive than the couch.
Smaller than the dishwasher.
Just as noisy as the refridgerator.
Faster than the cars' computer.
Less practical than the car.
Face it, people who put thier computer specs in thier signature are pretty ****ing wierd.

</pre>

Jetbuff
05-14-2004, 09:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ampadgog:
i prefer the twist. never could apply the rudder i wanted to make a long shot with my x45. therefore i hail for the twist. besides one can disable it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, disabling it isn't the same as having the rocker. It means I still have to find a rudder solution - probably pedals at $150! I'm not anti-twist per-se, to each their own, but I hate losing the rocker which I find far superior to twist action and a much cheaper alternative than buying pedals.

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Jetbuff
05-14-2004, 09:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Map rudder to the thumb-slide on the X52 throttle.

I would imagine thats exactly why they added another axis there, so people could us it as a rudder if they wanted to.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thumb versus two middle fingers... hmmm, nope not very enticing. I use the rocker much like I my hand is a miniature pilot with the middle and ring fingers alternating pressure like a pilot's feet would. My thumb (and index too) is otherwise engaged manipulating my zoom level, boost, pitch, elevator trim, flaps and radiator.

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BM357_TinMan
05-14-2004, 09:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Thumb versus two middle fingers... hmmm, nope not very enticing. I use the rocker much like I my hand is a miniature pilot with the middle and ring fingers alternating pressure like a pilot's feet would. My thumb (and index too) is otherwise engaged manipulating my zoom level, boost, pitch, elevator trim, flaps and radiator.

http://members.rogers.com/teemaz/sig.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Back to my statement, if the two items were sold "stand alone" (i.e. throttle and stick) then you could use the old throttle with the rocker with the new stick....

doh, why do they feel like they HAVE to make the two inseperable?!? Would make it WAY more versitile, and marketable

BM357_TinMan
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Bogun
05-14-2004, 09:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Well, if you had to use either the twist or the rocker for rudder control, which would you choose? Assume your pedals broke or something...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jetbuff,

I tryed CH USB pedals, rudder rocker and twist (I have five sets of controls by now) and I have chosen twist stick.
Saitek 3D Gold USB stick to be precise, with CH throttle Pro USB.
Unless you include twist stick in you poll for people like me - poll will not make sence...
The way X52 is comming - it is near perfect!


With respect,

Regards,

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- Walter Wolfrum (137 victories)

Jetbuff
05-14-2004, 09:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bogun:
I tryed CH USB pedals, rudder rocker and twist (I have five sets of controls by now) and I have chosen _twist_ stick. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Quite a surprise to me but to each his own. I rank them as:
1. Proper pedals
2. Rocker
.
.
.
.
7. Electro-Shock Therapy!
.
10. Twist-stick
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Unless you include twist stick in you poll for people like me - poll will not make sence...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Look again...

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Chivas
05-14-2004, 12:23 PM
I enjoyed using rudder pedals. But... when you had a split second to get the kill shot or get killed I found the twist stick much easier to coordinate. Never tried the Rocker but seems to be less intuitive than the twist, and I would sooner have my left hand free for other tasks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Adding the twist action to the X52 made it a must have to replace my cougar throttle and MSPPro when they pack it in.

Nero111
05-14-2004, 02:11 PM
Currently own an X45, giime an X52 NOW!!!!

http://www.saitekusa.com/usa/images/product/pcp/x52.jpg

With twist grip its gonna be a wicked hotas.

adlabs6
05-14-2004, 02:33 PM
I like the rocker for one reason... less cross input from the stick axes to the rudder and vise versa.

In reality, what we need is a twist throttle handle. This would keep the separation between the major control surface axes, and remove the hard time some people have trying reaching the rocker switch.

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TugZooey
05-14-2004, 02:36 PM
I prefer the rocker to the twisty handle (even though my gunnery was a little better with the twisty, my over all flying is better with the rocker). I had some serious wrist pains when I used a twisty stick which are gone since I switched over to X-45 (from Logitech FFB).

It's too bad Saitek doesn't at least make all their sticks with a port to take one of their throttles. I wouldn't mind trying the new EVO FFB with my X-45 throttle.

I might buy the X-52 if I get a raise and promotion to be able to afford it and CH pedals.

Bogun
05-14-2004, 02:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Quite a surprise to me but to each his own. I rank them as:
1. Proper pedals
2. Rocker
...
7. Electro-Shock Therapy!
.
10. Twist-stick
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How about this:

I don't own X-45, but will consider X-52 just because there are no lousy rocker.

Well, I may start liking rocker, but probably will need few electro-shock therapy sessions... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Regards,

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- Walter Wolfrum (137 victories)

BlitzPig_DDT
05-14-2004, 02:58 PM
Pedals are the way to go, but anything is better than a twisty stick.

Though the Cougar still pwnz any plastic â¢rap any day. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

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GT182
05-14-2004, 03:06 PM
I had the X45 and hated the rocker rudder control so I got my money back from Best Buy. I found and bought a used Cougar Hotas and used set of CH Pro Pedals and haven't regretted it yet. Cougar is the only way to go IMHO. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Check at Sim HQ in the Buy/Sell/Trade forum and you might find one there. But jump on it fast if you find one, as a lot of others are looking for the Cougar HOTAS too. Also check on EBay.

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T_O_A_D
05-14-2004, 03:18 PM
Ok I voted!

Now some more on it. I had twist sticks before Great at the time. But I got a good case of Tennis elbow. (tendenitous) At and around the time I was playing way too much. I got the X-45 not because of that but because I was tired of replacing Logitechs for failed rudder. They also were bad for cross signal problem. When moving the stick and even throttle you would get rudder response.

After getting the X-45 I knew the first day the Rocker was not for me. Just happened to have some extra cash and orderd the Ch pedals usb. I never looked at the Rocker again for a few months. Till I figured outhow to band it to control left and right engines, For taxing works great too.

Well after a month or so of not using twist stick my elbow calmed down. I'm not sure it was the sticks and flying causing it. But I'm a foreman anymore a desk jockey I do no real work so it was the only thing i could blame for it.

Well if they don't offer rocker I won't buy it. Unless my old throttle is still good and I can just use it for a button bay or something otherwize I'll probably save my money and go CH all the way.

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TooCooL34
05-14-2004, 03:24 PM
Used no rudder at all for 3 years.(because of flying jets)

Used twist rudder for 2 years.

Used rocker rudder for 3 months.

Used racing pedal for 4 months.

Have been praised how good twist rudder is.(Shame on me)

Bought CH pro pedals USB 3 weeks ago.

Shame on you if you talk about flight seriously in here when you use twist or rocker rudder for any excuse. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BpGemini
05-14-2004, 03:32 PM
I prefer the twisty handle rudder control. You have the movement controls for the plane all in one area. When I was in the store I had narrowed my seletion down to the X-45 and the Logitech Freedom. The Rocker Rudder was one of the things that lead me to choose:

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IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.
The Pig Sty (http://blitzpigs.com/)

BpGemini
05-14-2004, 03:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TooCooL34:
Bought CH pro pedals USB 3 weeks ago.

_Shame on you if you talk about flight seriously in here when you use twist or rocker rudder for any excuse._ http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I bought the CH Pro Pedals.

I took them back a few days later when I realized they weren't worth the price equivalency of 3 months worth of diapers for my son.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.blitzpigs.com/images/P-39_BlitzPig_Sig_01.jpg
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=25)
IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.
The Pig Sty (http://blitzpigs.com/)

TooCooL34
05-14-2004, 04:04 PM
A few days are not enough to convert twist rudder worshiper to true(?) pilot.
Do you think it's good excuse, diapers for your son? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif
Now I won't believe your online Iliad http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BpGemini:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TooCooL34:
Bought CH pro pedals USB 3 weeks ago.

_Shame on you if you talk about flight seriously in here when you use twist or rocker rudder for any excuse._ http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I bought the CH Pro Pedals.

I took them back a few days later when I realized they weren't worth the price equivalency of 3 months worth of diapers for my son.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bearcat99
05-14-2004, 10:26 PM
I use rudder pedals and I use my rocker for flaps.....

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | IL2 Manager (http://www.checksix-fr.com/bibliotheque/detail_fichier.php?ID=1353) | MUDMOVERS (http://magnum-pc.netfirms.com/mudmovers/index.htm)

USE THAT X45 STICK AS A BUTTON BAY!

Tully__
05-14-2004, 11:13 PM
Both the rocker and the twist stick are compromises in the absence of rudder pedals. Each has it's own special advantages & disadvatages over the other.

When I first started using the X-45 I found converting to the rocker very awkward, but now I think I'd prefer it slightly to a twist, despite twist sticks being more intuitive to use.

Ideally, a set of rudder pedals custom made to match RL proportions and wired into the twist/rocker axis or a set of those linked to early in this thread ( http://www.avsim.com/pages/0503/pfcpedals/pfc_pedals.html ) would grace my "cockpit".

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Salut
Tully

Bogun
05-15-2004, 12:54 AM
Tully,
I have CH Pro USB pedals. I gave the whole CH suite a honest try. It just did not work for me – everything so quickly done with twist handle was taking three times longer with the pedals. I tried them for a month and realized – game had stop being fun and become unpleasant work. So CH Fighterstick USB and CH pedals now collecting dust and I use CH Throttle USB with my honest and trusty Saitek 3D Gold.
By the way – I gave Cougar and X-45 try as well – in my opinion they both are garbage, but in case of Cougar – overpriced garbage.

Anyone want cheap CH control suit?

Regards,

Forgotten War Home Page (http://www.forgottenskies.com/ForgottenWars/default.aspx)
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"The best fighters I met in combat were the American P-51 Mustang and Russian Yak-9U. Both of those types obviously exceeded all Bf109 variants in performance, including the 'K'. The Mustang was unmatched in altitude performance, while the Yak-9U was champion in rate of climb and maneuverability."

- Walter Wolfrum (137 victories)

Heavy_Weather
05-15-2004, 11:42 AM
you can get CH stuff for fairly reasonable prices: http://www.provantage.com/buy-110chpu-ch-shopping.htm

"To fly a combat mission is not a trip under the moon. Every attack, every bombing is a dance with death."
- Serafima Amsova-Taranenko: Noggle, Ann (1994): A Dance with Death.