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sledgehammer2
01-25-2004, 03:52 PM
Is the DM for the 109s accurate? If I make a run on a bomber it seems that I catch a couple of bullets and the damn windshield gets covered in oil and the engine gets knocked out. I realize attacking bombers is risky, but it seems that in the 109s it's pointless to even try! Any thoughts on this?

hammer

Remember Peleliu 1944

sledgehammer2
01-25-2004, 03:52 PM
Is the DM for the 109s accurate? If I make a run on a bomber it seems that I catch a couple of bullets and the damn windshield gets covered in oil and the engine gets knocked out. I realize attacking bombers is risky, but it seems that in the 109s it's pointless to even try! Any thoughts on this?

hammer

Remember Peleliu 1944

buggggggged
01-25-2004, 03:58 PM
I haven't had much luck either. I think that you do have to refrain from rear attack.

Speco
01-25-2004, 04:08 PM
Rear attack is out of question! 12 o'clock high is the way to go! Keep your speed high ( I mean realy HIGH!) The best way is to come from above him that way he has the shortest amount of time ta take you down. Ofcourse it depends on the bomber in question and the gunner skill.

sledgehammer2
01-25-2004, 08:32 PM
Thanks for that advice. I know better than to even try a 6 oclock attack. It just seems like the 109 gets damage awfully easy. I have tried to duplicate the beam maneuver that was used against B-17s where you fire and then roll over and dive under, but it almost never works for me.

Remember Peleliu 1944

kyrule2
01-25-2004, 10:54 PM
Thats why I fly the 190 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

But seriously, it is annoying seeing IL-2's and TB-3's knocking down 109's like flys. On Greatergreen (map was 1941 based) the other day the enemy came at us with 3 Tb-3's and they did some heavy damage (to the fighters, not with bombs). You really need to attack from the front or from way above and this requires alot of time/patience. I managed to down one of the TB-3's myself with an F-4. I dove from way above and shot him in a similar manner as strafing the ground. I got him down with the high volume of hits but as soon as I came within range the sniper gunners damaged me enough that I had to do a blind crash landing at home base. Many had to switch to 109E's to try and bring down the bombers.

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Vamandrac_Steam
01-25-2004, 11:13 PM
I like to use angle attacks comming from the bombers 5 or 7 o'clock. Speed is the key so I usally try to dive towards my target. I can take out a bomber in at least 2 passes if my aim is true.

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mortoma
01-25-2004, 11:28 PM
Wonderful that many of you have these special techniques to kill bombers with a 109. But I think the point the poster seemed to be making is that the DM for the 109 is maybe a hair too fragile. We all know that the 109 had it's vulnerabilities, but I have always felt that Oleg exaggerated the fragilitiy of the 109 series somewhat. I think they were easier than average to down, but probably not all that fragile. No way to prove it of course. But my way of thinking is that the Germans would probably not have elected to use it at all against Fortresses and Liberators, if it would have been as fragile as it is in FB. They would have probably just went with the FWs only instead and used the 109 for something else. I have never read any comments from bomber crews stating that 109s were a cinch to down. I think they went too far!!! It's a pushover as currently modelled, a spitball will down one easily. So what, it had a liquid-cooled engine, that in of itself should not make it paper airplane.

LazyNerd_
01-25-2004, 11:49 PM
109s really aren't all that bad, the frame can soak up a good deal of damage.. its when you start getting nailed in the engine that you've got a problem. Couple shots = oil in the windscreen.

About the bombers.. I would agree to do a screaming dive from 12 oclock high and as you pull out of the dive you will want to take evasive manuevers for dodging the bullets, because they can rip you a new one on the way out of a pass.

_____________________________
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kyrule2
01-26-2004, 01:21 AM
"It's a pushover as currently modelled, a spitball will down one easily. So what, it had a liquid-cooled engine, that in of itself should not make it paper airplane."

And the 109 in FB is tougher than the 190 in some ways. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And yes, I do agree that Oleg went a little too far with the 109's fragility, especially where the engine is concerned.

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"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian

Cpt-Madcowz
01-26-2004, 03:06 AM
I spent about 3 nights practising downing 2x HE111's with a 109.

Started off getting ripped to pieces before I got even near them. But after a while I had it sorted. High speed/altitude attack from directly above and a LOT of deflection. Could usually down at least one before they even fired a shot.

Using this technique, often manage to shoot two of them without a single hit to myself.

Obviously, this game also ended with me falling to the ground in a burning plane without even firing a shot.


/Mad

"When the hunter comes, the tiger runs with the dear"

bazzaah2
01-26-2004, 05:17 AM
my feeling is that the 109s are a little fragile, but the issue is more with the accuracy of AI gunners. I rarely lose a wing but very often get an engine fire etc when attacking B17s, even if attacking at 750+km/h in a K4.

But then attacking a 17 was a risky business so I'm really not sure...Kinds sucks when you get shot down but it did happen.

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MajorBloodnok
01-26-2004, 05:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But then attacking a 17 was a risky business so I'm really not sure...Kinds sucks when you get shot down but it did happen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I suppose that's why they're called 'Flying Fortresses'...

------------------------------
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Spouting evil commie brain-rot at, er, well Imperialists mainly, since like 1977, you know, when Star Wars came out?

Fehler
01-26-2004, 06:09 AM
If someone has some data on the number of 109's shot down by B17's versus the number of B17 sorties, I am sure you will quickly discover that the FB B17 is far far more accurate in dealing with 109's than it's real world counterpart.


If REAL B-17's were as tough, there would have been no real need for the P-51D. I mean, not many bomber crews laughed in glee when they saw 109's above. "Look Sam, those silly Luft boys.. Gonna dive into our guns again.. hehe.. Now where is the tea?"

So that means it is one of two things.. The 109's engine is too weak against damage, or the AI guns are too accurate. I believe it's the gunners, not the engine. The 109's DM is one of the best in the game.

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Willthisnamedo
01-26-2004, 06:20 AM
Inclined to agree. I mean, it is a laugh to get in a b17 and circle around blowing fighters away in this game. Now I could just about believe that if it were a huge formation, but all the memoirs stress that once out of formation, you were dead meat in your 'heavy'. AI gunnery, overall, just seems a bit too accurate. All the stories suggest that - particularly for crew gunners in heavies - there was as much luck as judgement involved in hitting anything. Again, that's why they ended up desperately sticking together, so as to maximise the sheer volume of bullets. And compared with the way a piloted a/c with 50 cals has so much difficulty in killing (P51), it seems a little odd..

Patch_whiner
01-26-2004, 07:00 AM
The fly in the ointment of IL2 FB - AI gunners who can't miss. IL2 FB demonstrates
how difficult it is to shoot an opponent. You are going at 507 km/hr, he is going at
278 km/hr, his heading is 231 deg yours 86, he's climing and you are diving. Your bullets
disperse, you misjudge deflection, you fire at 3 feet above his wing and 5 below. Shooting
down an opponent is a skill. I tried an experiment of 20 flights in a Heinkel He-111 H2 versus
a Yak 1. First 10 flights I was the ventral gunner, 2nd 10 flights I was in the Yak.
The result:

Heinkel : Killed 8 times, survived 2 times (once causing Yak to disenguage, once
causing Yak to crash)
Yak 1 : Killed 1 time, destroyed Heinkel 3 times, 6 occasions when Yak/Heinkel were
both damaged. In all cases Yak damaged.

So with these type of results IL2 FB is contradicting itself. Bombers would not have required
fighter escorts with this ability to dish out punishment. In my mind when dogfighting (all this
is offline) often you spend 10 minutes damaging an apponent. If he manages to get on your tail
though, it is usually only a very short period of time before serious damage occurs. Why is FB like this ? Because AI algorithms are as difficult to get right as complex physics models. I would
guess that both the form of the AI routines and the values in these routines (relating to the AI's ability to hit a target) are slighly wrong. Still an ace sim though.


PW

Willthisnamedo
01-26-2004, 07:04 AM
Interesting, patch whiner: I hadn't thought to actually compare like with like as you have - good idea.

I agree, it remains the best sim out there: it would just be nice if something like the LOMAC 'missile effectiveness' slider was available: 'AI accuracy/dispersion'... I think they're a little too like the 'missiles of guaranteed death' from flanker at the moment...

Fehler
01-26-2004, 07:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I would
guess that both the form of the AI routines and the values in these routines (relating to the AI's ability to hit a target) are slighly wrong. Still an ace sim though.
PW<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed! One of the funny things I have experienced (Funny but frustrating) happened just the other day. I was Fired, took his wing off. I turned slightly to watch my handy work as one of the gunners in the engine nacell shoots at me from the wing piece I just shot off! That wing was spinning around. spiraling towards the ground. But the gunner HIT me! And worse than that, it shot my engine out completely locking it up. Now, I really wish I had recorded that track. But seriously I want to know how in the heck a gunner could have hit me like that. If he was strapped in his seat. he had to have been pulling 12-15 G's as his wing piece was spinning! heh

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Willthisnamedo
01-26-2004, 07:17 AM
Now that WOULD have been annoying...

It's like the 'PE8 of destruction'. Those gunners must have been trained since birth in deflection shooting.

Willthisnamedo
01-26-2004, 07:19 AM
Of course it may have been all part of the early USSR space program: they couldn't afford those crazy centrifuge jobs beloved of all the films about astronauts, so they sealed candidates in 'crap planes', and saw how accurate their gunnery remained in 12g spiralling death dives... Bred twins, and the remaining live one got to be a cosmonaut... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

ElfunkoI
01-26-2004, 07:21 AM
In a 109 with 30mm (K4 by preference), I come in from 12 oclock high with about a 30-40* dive. Get your lead down and you can land about 4-5 30mm depending on where you're aiming and speeds and such. If its wingroot it'll probably fall off. The only problem is after you dive by at 750 kph and are 800m out and pull up you get hit by the tailgunner right in the engine. The B-17s are obsurd, but also I've seen crap that isn't even fathomable in real life ie. I dive on Il2 with 109G6A/s (30mm) from 2 km am going 700+ kph he does a 70 degree right bank I pass with 90* deflection and for that millisecond I fly by behind him the tailgunner pops my engine (the Il2 was still pulling G's mind you). What was the purpose of fighters? Why dont we all just get gunships?

Platypus_1.JaVA
01-26-2004, 07:30 AM
Well, it is obvious. Choose a 109 wich is armed with the awesome 30mm Mk-108 cannon. You should attack the bombers like... well... like a sledgehammer, from above. Start with an altitude advantage of about 1000m and dive down on the bombers (about 50 or 60 degree dive is okay) Align with a particular target and when the bomber starts to close into range, start shooting, imagine your bullets like a giant chainsaw, swooping through the aircraft. Practise a bit and soon enough, you can aim like William Tell. For quicker kills, aim for the engines and the wings. Aim for the same spot, if possible when you make multiple sweeps.

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2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

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Willthisnamedo
01-26-2004, 07:35 AM
yeah - but platypus, as we've all been saying, it's not about our crap gunnery - it's about their insanely good gunnery. read Fehler's posts: he's hit and shattered the aircraft, and the gunner in a spiralling burning engine nacelle, plummeting earthwards, calmly and accurately blows him out of the sky.

I can live with it, but it aint entirely realistic, to my mind...

FW190fan
01-26-2004, 09:28 AM
The best way to kill bombers is from 12 O'clock high.

Chin turret or not, there's just not much they can do about it.

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

Fehler
01-26-2004, 10:20 AM
Ill tell you what...

When I was in the service, I had an opportunity to do some airial gunning with an M-60 mg on a Jolly Green.

Now, mind you, I stll fancy myself a pretty good shot (On anything other than FB) and I can still outshoot all but a couple of guys on my department, even at my age. But I couldnt hit doo-doo from the air.

That was on a relatively stationary platform, not a bomber going 250 and an incoming fighter doing 400 MPH! Now, toss in G's and well, you get my point.

The gunners in FB are not even close to being realistic. I dont think the automated guns on the B52 (Cant remember which model had radar guns) would be that accurate.. LOL

Oh well, it's something we all have to live with... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

IL2 is not perfect. Oleg knows this.... hint hint.. he has packed the game engine with as much stuff as he could without making a new game engine.. That new engine is on the way... BOB (Better Oleg Battles) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Future-
01-26-2004, 10:35 AM
"The gunners in FB are not even close to being realistic"

Sorry for just using your line as example Fehler. But yes, the gunners aren't quite realistic. But the scenarios most of us enjoy to fly in aren't realistic either.
Besides, don't forget that there is some kind of randomization for online play, regarding both ai efficiency and damage taken.

Last but not least, if I am really happy to fly such a badly armed plane (I fly B17) that has "sniper" gunners, how come I still get killed? How come I most of the time get killed?
On good days, I can bring my plane home about 60% of all attacks I fly. On bad days, I'm happy if I make it back once or twice during 2 hours of playing!

S!

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

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Visit us at http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

Xnomad
01-26-2004, 10:51 AM
The gunners aren't realistic and the 109 is badly modeled in this respect. One Luftwaffe pilot mentioned that attacking a pulk of B-17's he always came home with some bullet holes. In 109 in FB one hit usually puts you out of action as either your radiator is bust, there is oil on the windscreen or your wing has been taken off.

The other day I was stalking an IL 2 online in my Bf 109 G2 and I was flying behind and far below him, I wanted to get him from underneath, a difficult shot but it's fun to do. The IL 2 heard me (this is before 1.22 patch) and he pulled up, his tail gunner spotted me and fired. The first bullet hit me and I blew up! This was from 500 metres or so and all happend in a split second. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Usually I attack at high speed from the front but I've been knocked out doing that loads of times as well. Now the new patch is here I'll try to sneak up on that pesky IL 2 again!

yarbles67
01-26-2004, 11:26 AM
AI gunnery is both an immersion killer and fun factor killer. It boils down to the il2 gods and their demented lottery system. if they decide it's time for you to die when attacking a bomber, you will die. It doesn't matter which tactic you use for the ai gunner can fire through his own fuselage while pulling 20+ Gs. I tried everything and after years of playing this game, it's a lottery pick that's typically stacked against you. Best bet is to ram the bomber and bail out http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Abel29A
01-26-2004, 11:38 AM
Just had to share my frustration with the laser guided AI gunners, since everybody were talking about it :=)

Trying to down a He 111 with eight .303 browning mgs is... impossible... I've been playing the Battle of Britain campaign with my hurricane, and downing an enemy bomber with that crappy equipment is impossible. Sure, the Hurricane had less then adequate armament and such, but still, as I recall they did manage to shoot down something http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But no... everytime I come within 500m the gunners blaze like mad and my trusty hurri gets so damaged that I have to do emergency landings, while the Heinkel limps away(I usually mangae to destroy one engine at least before he gets me, but thats not enough).

If I attack from high up or frontal I do manage to get away most of the time, but I then run out of ammo before I shoot the bastard dwon, as it requires lots of 303 rounds to cause damage.

Now, I'm no expert on Heinkels, but from what I seem to recall the mg's in the Heinkels where 7.92mm magazine fed thingys where they not? Or is the FB Heinkel upgunned and belt fed? Cause those gunners NEVER styop to reload http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Anyways, thats my two cents worth. To bad, as this is the only thing annoying me in an otherwise excellent sim. Oleg - please fix!

--

"Wir sehen uns in Walhalla" - Ehrler Heinrich

Future-
01-26-2004, 01:02 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

*sigh*

Ever heard of such things like skill and luck? I bet a good human gunner in FB would be able to pull of similar shots now and then.
So what's so bad about having ai simulate this? Sure, it will always feel a bit artificial.

Besides, most of the people that complain here make the mistake of following a bomber, attacking it from its 5 - 7 oclock angle, flying up on it realtively slow compared to the bomber's speed. And believe me, anybody who mounts such an attack DESERVES getting shot to pieces. The reason why some people still can get away with this tactic sometimes is that the "laser guided ai gunners", as often as they do their "sniper" hits, also mis badly or even don't shoot at all.
Also, it happens that when engaged by two enemies, they target one of them and keep targetting him even if he's no longer the more imminent threat. A human gunner would just switch to the more dangerous target, but the ai gunners are kinda "sticky" on an enemy once the targetted him.

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

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Visit us at http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

shadyfred
01-26-2004, 01:39 PM
Oh dear: this is obviously one of those things that one is either for or against. While I don't really mind, cos it is a game after all, people like Future should read the origins of the thread.

As Fehler and others have pointed out, this is not about stupidly flying straight and level up a bomber's 6 and wondering why you get shot: we are making an observation about the uncanny abilities of the AI gunners - even in shot up, collapsing, burning, PIECES of their aircraft. Please stop confusing the effects of our gunnery, and flying, with the effects of the AI gunnery routines. The 2 are not automatically linked.

Like Fehler, I too have fired from aircraft in crew positions: it's a nightmare! There is no way that the game is accurate in this respect.

And, as one contributor pointed out, he actually flew as a he111 gunner, and then as the attacking plane. The AI displayed uber performance in both directions. So please,please, don't bother with the 'if you flew as brilliantly as me this wouldn't happen' lines - cos we aint interested.

it's no big deal, but don't tell us that black is white... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Future-
01-26-2004, 02:04 PM
I said MOST people complain that are unable to mount a good attack AFTER I posted this line:

"Ever heard of such things like skill and luck? I bet a good human gunner in FB would be able to pull of similar shots now and then.
So what's so bad about having ai simulate this? Sure, it will always feel a bit artificial."

So, if you would've read this, you would have known that I did catch the point, and added my 2 cents.
Still, the fact remains that many who complain lack some skills. Now, if you have a feeling that I'm talking about you, maybe you should ask yourself if your style of flying is questioned or if you just mistakenly felt targetted by my statement.

I agree that the ai gunners sometimes pull off incredible stunts, and that some of these aspects should be corrected. Mind this, SOME of these aspects, not all of them. I think the way the ai is behaving now sure needs some fine-tuning, but is overall ok. Besides, it wouldn't be much entertaining if you would always just have to do one and the same thing and as a result, one and the same outcome is achieved. The fact that FB itself and Ô┬┤the people that play it are rarely completely predictable, makes this game interesting.

S!

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

shadyfred
01-26-2004, 02:18 PM
Hmm, well, maybe - I just get fed up with, as I said, the implicit 'you must be a muppet' tone in many such posts.

Having said which, let's not get into a slanging match: you think it's basically ok - I think it's basically porked.

I also haven't observed your 'stickiness' to any degree: B17 gunners in particular are very good at switching targets. And in fact, I'd say the behaviour you describe would, if they displayed it, actually be more realistic.

Why? because a gunner (in any vehicle) tends to develop target fixation: once he's locked onto a target, he will hose it till it's gone, and often does so even when a more dangerous one appears. Ask anyone who'se served in the military - its a commonplace ("just one more burst - that'll kill him..").

yarbles67
01-26-2004, 02:22 PM
Shadyfred - Future doesn't get it so it's not worth trying to be logical about the discussion. The community has acknowledged since the original Il-2 days that AI gunner is flawed. Flawed so much in fact that one of the first major patches issued for the original Il-2 addressed this very programming error. They patched it but it but it didn't correct the problem. I've been hit by a B17 gunner in a Me262 going well over 650 KM/hr in a dive! I've been hit by a PE8 while the PE8 was pulling left and I pulling right at 550 Km/hr+. We all know it's flawed and it's not the occasional 'miracle' shot we have a problem with as Future would call it. Don't waste your breath my brotha.

Future-
01-26-2004, 05:47 PM
@ yarbles67: Rest asured, I exactly know almost everything there is to know about the ai gunners, especially those in FB.
I have spent a damn lot of time flying especially the B-17G since the 1.2beta was out, and before that I occasionally was happy to fly the Pe-8. So I have a lot of experience in observing the behavior of ai gunners.
Of course, I can now start and explain everything for you, and at the end of my statement I would ask you to test it by yourself.
But then again, I doubt you're really that interested. If you are, however, you can find several threads on this topic all over in General Discussion and Oleg's Ready Room.

Now, before you acuse me again of not using logic and not getting the point, ask yourself: do you really know about how the ai gunners function? Have you spent a considerable amount of time flying multiple bombers to observe ai behavior? Or are you just looking at it from the "receiving" end?
Walk a few miles in my shoes, and we'll talk again.

Of course, the ai gunners have their flaws, but I can assure you, not all of them are beneficial for a bomber pilot.

Ah, and to give you a hard fact: yes, it's true, the creators tuned down the ai gunners in the original IL-2 game after they had to see that a Me-323 was capable of downing 6 - 9 fighters with ease.
But this is FB, and while it shares many components with original IL-2, it's overall a different game. For FB, the ai gunner's "powers" were improved again, and especially during the last patches for FB one can see an ongoing fine-tuning of the overall ai.
Many expect the next major change for the ai gunner problem with the coming add-on, we will see what things look like once "Ace's Expansion Pack" gets to us.

I'm always open to a constructive discussion, in which a given problem/situation is analyzed and different experiences are factored in, before a conclusion is made.
Always keep an open mind, that's what I'm trying to do. Are you with me on at least this?

S!

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

Snoop_Baron
01-26-2004, 06:02 PM
It's not just the 109 plenty if not most planes will have the same problem when attacking bombers in this game unless you are very careful. The AI is very good at hitting your engine. I've also been playing the RAF campaign and it is indeed dificult to take out He111s with a HurriMkI (but it can be done I've done it a couple of times). One time I just flew underneath the bomber and took it out with my rudder http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I was still had the rest of my controls so I was able to land back at my airfield http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

I know where Future is coming from. In real life unlike in an online DF there would be many more bombers flying in formation. So in a way the really good gunners compensate for that. But when you are playing coop or single player missions it makes a lone bomber stronger than it should be. In offline and coop missions designers should be able to fix the problem by lowering the bombers AI.

What they should do is allow us to edit the gunner AI level independent of the planes flight AI for bombers in all situations, online DF, online coop, and offline play.

s!
Snoop

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Future-
01-26-2004, 06:20 PM
Good idea there Snoop, this would also help to stop the "randomization" we seem to have on the overall ai gunner efficiency in online battles.
An option to set the gunner's ai lvl would be very nice.

S!

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

dieadler
01-26-2004, 08:30 PM
On QMB attack TB from the front and below with the 109 and aim for engines. This works for me. Another alternative is to us Pz11 (I'm serious!) with 50 cals and twist and turn in from about 2 o'clock. Th BT3 is tough!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kyrule2:
Thats why I fly the 190 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

But seriously, it is annoying seeing IL-2's and TB-3's knocking down 109's like flys. On Greatergreen (map was 1941 based) the other day the enemy came at us with 3 Tb-3's and they did some heavy damage (to the fighters, not with bombs). You really need to attack from the front or from way above and this requires alot of time/patience. I managed to down one of the TB-3's myself with an F-4. I dove from way above and shot him in a similar manner as strafing the ground. I got him down with the high volume of hits but as soon as I came within range the sniper gunners damaged me enough that I had to do a blind crash landing at home base. Many had to switch to 109E's to try and bring down the bombers.

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"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Willthisnamedo
01-27-2004, 04:27 AM
Oh my God, Future: can you not give it a rest??

Quote:
"Rest asured, I exactly know almost everything there is to know about the ai gunners, especially those in FB.
I have spent a damn lot of time flying especially the B-17G since the 1.2beta was out, and before that I occasionally was happy to fly the Pe-8. So I have a lot of experience in observing the behavior of ai gunners.
Of course, I can now start and explain everything for you, and at the end of my statement I would ask you to test it by yourself."

End quote...

Oh you know almost everything there is to know, do you? I didn't realise that you were part of the IL2FB design/code team. Your posts are consistently implying that everyone who doesn't agree with you does so because they don't understand what they're talking about.

Quote:
"I'm always open to a constructive discussion, in which a given problem/situation is analyzed and different experiences are factored in, before a conclusion is made.
Always keep an open mind, that's what I'm trying to do. Are you with me on at least this?"

End Quote.

A truly open mind would accept that the general consensus is that, ON THE RECEIVING END (not sat in the B17/PE8) the AI gunnery routines are somewhat impressive. Go back and read Fehler's comments re being shot at from burning bits of plane falling out of the sky. this is not the unusual miracle, its the norm. The rare miracle is when you don't get taken out by some waist gunner armed with a pistol...

I don't want to get heavy: but please try not to impose your view on others. We all observe and enjoy different elements of a great sim. However you cut it, the AI gunnery is unrealistically impressive, for whatever reason. I don't really 'mind' in a serious way, but the evidence is in the number of people in online play who happily select B17s and PE8s by choice, and go and have fun in them. You will see Bf109s and FW190s avoiding them after they've been hit several times. I actually chased and killed a 109 in my B17 last night..( http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif)

Its a laugh, but it does not conform to the historical evidence on such encounters: by and large, in daylight, a lone heavy was toast against a fighter. Sorry, didn't mean to rant, but you do come across as trying to 'impose' your will on others - unlike your comments above.

NorrisMcWhirter
01-27-2004, 06:31 AM
Hi,

Whilst avoiding the slanging matches...

On the subject of the Hurricane and the Battle Over Britain campaign, I'd have to agree that it is very difficult to shoot down He111s. Even head on, pilot kills appear rare, so it's a case of diving in and trying to hit an engine on each pass. If you can get it to smoke, the thing will eventually come down; trying to take a wing off or similar is just too difficult.

Of course, it couldn't have been that difficult because He111s were coming down all over the place during the real BoB and that was predominantly down to Hurricanes with relatively low loss rates (i.e. no sniper gunners).

Hopefully, in the Aces expansion, these issues will be addressed.

Regards,
Norris


================================================== ==========

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More irreverence:
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SpinSpinSugar
01-27-2004, 06:47 AM
Regarding Hurris, I was firmly with you fellas - and I still think the effect of 8 .303s is a little on the light side - but playing the RAF campaign I don't think it's THAT far out.

I can usually bring down two Heinkels with one ammo load in an eight-gun Hurri. The tactics have to be different to using heavier guns - with cannons you're primarily looking to break an airframe, with MGs you're primarily looking to kill the aircrew and damage vital components. This CAN be done but it is imperitive you have your convergence set correctly for your preferred distance of gunnery. If you lace the front fuselage with 8 .303s that crew is going to die or bail, those guns put out a huge amount of bullets.

That's the damage you can cause, as for the AI defensive gunnery yes, that's definitely a problem in a slower aircraft like a Hurri. High attacks from the quarters seem to work reasonable well, I usually get on better with a Heinkels' top gunner than the fella below, perhaps as the guy on top is out in the open and has cold hands.

Cheers, SSS

XyZspineZyX
01-27-2004, 07:04 AM
I agree mate - I found that a very fast diving attack, starting almost vertically above the Heinkel then diving in from behind, allowed me to kill the dorsal gunner with my first burst almost every time. I too have found the ventral He-111 gunners to be better than their dorsal comrades, so I never venture below them. Once the dorsal gunner is dead, a similar attack to the first one - with guns concentrated about 150m away - is usually enough for me to kill the pilot. Thanks to the 'de Wilde' bullets you can see precisely where you're hitting the plane, and the Heinkel's cockpit is almost completely unarmoured. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Future-
01-27-2004, 07:20 AM
I'm not a member of the programming team, but I have a considerable amount of experience regarding ai gunner behavior. An amount only a pilot can have that spent a lot of time flying the heavy bombers. And everybody who has done that agrees with me, so it's definitely not my lone opinion, but a well observed fact.
Now, I think that everybody should have and speak out his own opinion, but when it comes to recommendations on game changes, some well-observed facts are required.
The best proof you certainly missed some of those facts is this line here:

"You will see Bf109s and FW190s avoiding them after they've been hit several times."

If that's true, then I guess I've been shot down by astral projections these days that only called themselves "109" and "190"!
You know, the now and then upcoming term "fighter magnet" isn't there for nothing, even Ki-84s and some Zeros happily and eagerly jump my B-17 when they see it approaching.

"you do come across as trying to 'impose' your will on others "

Again, I don't state my will or any fantasies here, I state facts that I observed over MONTHS. The only reason I'm doing this here almost alone is that many that know about this just don't see any use in trying over and over again to explain the same things that have already been explained countless times. Again, I recommend you look some of the older threads up regarding ai gunners and the B-17.

Thanks, S!

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

yarbles67
01-27-2004, 07:30 AM
Future -

I can't agrue issues of how AI is coded or how the internals of the game work because I'm clueless on such matters. All I can speak from is years of experience flying this sim. I love this game by the way but AI gunnery whether it be from bombers or ground flak batteries as always been NASTY in a ridculous sort of way. I am man enough to admit when I do something really stupid and I it gets me killed. I do this quite often by the way. I can own up to that but I can say that there have been many times when I would killed by a miracle round that doesn't fly in the face of reality or reason (eg fuselage of a PE8 split in half and the gunners are still blazing). I would even except the rare miracle shot that should never have landed but it happens almost every time you make a pass at a bomber regardless of attack angles and speed. I would make a guess that every time you do bomber intercept you'll get hit but the hit may not be the fatal blow, but you get hit. Is that real? I try to be open minded but when so many other folks voice the same frustration about AI gunnery, I have to believe it's more than just my poor flying habits or lack of skill. I'm not trying to bust your balls Future because you sound like a smart guy that knows alot about this game but I wouldn't dismiss the notion that the AI could be possibly flawed. I just hope that BoB being released in 2005 fixes this problem. It will truly suck since most of the RAF missions will be to intercept bombers. The game should reward pilots that fly with sound tactics and punish severely those execute poorly (ie sitting on the plane's ***) or brazingly flying through a massive kill box.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yarbles67:
Shadyfred - Future doesn't get it so it's not worth trying to be logical about the discussion. The community has acknowledged since the original Il-2 days that AI gunner is flawed. Flawed so much in fact that one of the first major patches issued for the original Il-2 addressed this very programming error. They patched it but it but it didn't correct the problem. I've been hit by a B17 gunner in a Me262 going well over 650 KM/hr in a dive! I've been hit by a PE8 while the PE8 was pulling left and I pulling right at 550 Km/hr+. We all know it's flawed and it's not the occasional 'miracle' shot we have a problem with as Future would call it. Don't waste your breath my brotha.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Future-
01-27-2004, 07:44 AM
Yarbles, now we're starting to get somewhere here.
I have to agree that the ai often does some VERY strange and ridiculous things, and even guys with sound tactics get hit badly sometimes.
But please, also consider this: despite the known problem of ai gunners, many still keep flying up a bomber from behind. The weird thing is now, I've been victim of many such attacks where the attacker received little - to medium damage at best, while my B17 was heavily damaged or the pilot killed. And some of these planes were and are early war Hurricanes, Ki-84s or Zeros; planes I normally consider only a low priority threat.
It seems from things I and others observed that when an online server is started, the game randomly sets the gunner's ai lvl somewhere between rookie and ace.
For example, I've been on Slammin's server quite often, and when I key in "&lt;gunstat", I get results between 2% - 9% in hit rate, depending on just if the gunners have a "good day" (high ai lvl) or a "bad day" (low ai lvl).

S!, and thx for your attention, maybe we'll meet in battle sometime soon http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

Chef_Boy_R_D
01-27-2004, 07:47 AM
The problem is not the BF-109 being under modeled, the problem is that AI gunners are unrealisticly acurate.

Seedking1
01-27-2004, 08:25 AM
All very interesting - why do Spitfires / hurricanes have no problem in downing a HE 111,ME110, ME 109 ME etc etc,,, and an ME109 smokes like no ones business at he hint of a little 303 piece of lead.

Willthisnamedo
01-27-2004, 08:29 AM
Again - and I'm not going to post any more on this, because we're obviously in a no win situation, BUT: Future, you have once again chosen to ignore the thrust of my argument: I fully accept that stupid flying will get me killed, and have already said - as you well know - that I'm not talking about what happens when you fly up a bomber's 6.

My query is nothing whatsoever to do with the 'many who keep flying up a bomber's behind', and I clearly did not mean that you get attacked by phantom aircraft (much as I might feel you deserve it.....) - so don't impute daft ideas to me in an attempt to ridicule my argument/bolster your case, please. And statements like 'everybody who has done that agrees with me' are just plane wrong - because I've done that, and I don't ,for one. So if you make unsubstantiated wrong statements as fact, why should I believe anything you say?

What I am talking about, in very simple words, is the EFFECT OF AI CREW GUNNERY ON PILOTED AIRCRAFT. NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH WATCHING THE CREW AND HOW LONG MY BOMBER LASTS WHEN ATTACKED BY OTHER PLAYERS. Now, which bit of that do you choose not to underestand?

Xnomad
01-27-2004, 10:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chef_Boy_R_D:
The problem is not the BF-109 being under modeled, the problem is that AI gunners are unrealisticly acurate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the 109 is undermodeled, I rarely attack a large bomber online in a 109, only if there is nothing else around for ages or I'm greedy. With a FW 190 I just blast away and don't have to be half as careful.

Nevertheless the gunners are still amazingly accurate and do 1 million times better than I could when flying as a gunner on a bomber.

[This message was edited by Xnomad on Tue January 27 2004 at 03:34 PM.]

johann_thor
01-27-2004, 11:07 AM
i have no trouble attacking 2 B17s alone in a G6.

the other day i made like 20-25 slashing attacks (damn 20mm cannon) and only got 1-2 .50 hits in my cockpit that broke my gunsight.

you are just doing it wrong.

GoodKn1ght
01-27-2004, 11:11 AM
ive said this many times before ill say it again. nerf the AI gunners!!! There are people out there that are abusing them, *cough* future *cough* and they will say anything so they can continue to vulch with thier sniper platform.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

Future-
01-27-2004, 11:29 AM
Lol, who let Goodknight in here? Since he got kicked from Slammin's server, he's become #1 troll in the absence of the uber-twins.


@ Willthisnamedo: "What I am talking about, in very simple words, is the EFFECT OF AI CREW GUNNERY ON PILOTED AIRCRAFT."

That's just what I'm also talking about, I'm merely giving examples that should point out that the gunners are sometimes real killers, but also are sometimes pretty useless.

"NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH WATCHING THE CREW AND HOW LONG MY BOMBER LASTS WHEN ATTACKED BY OTHER PLAYERS."

On the contrary, it has a lot to do with watching the crew (=the gunners) and how long my plane survives, cause if the gunners are up for the job, my bird sure lives longer, don't you think too? Of course, if gunners perform bad, I don't live that long. Please read this part of my last posting again:

"It seems from things I and others observed that when an online server is started, the game randomly sets the gunner's ai lvl somewhere between rookie and ace.
For example, I've been on Slammin's server quite often, and when I key in "&lt;gunstat", I get results between 2% - 9% in hit rate, depending on just if the gunners have a "good day" (high ai lvl) or a "bad day" (low ai lvl)."

Now, to use your own words, "which bit of that do you choose not to underestand?"

S!

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

GoodKn1ght
01-27-2004, 11:34 AM
ur like gollum in LOTR and the b17 is your precious. i hope it becomes the death of you.
btw.. i think its turning you evil. **shhh***

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

Future-
01-27-2004, 11:45 AM
Well, I wonder what it was that turned you to the evil ****-head you are most of the time now.

You know, there was a time when I thought "ah, there's Goodknight, he knows the rules, and he's a good, reasonable pilot".
That was until that one night back on Slammin's when you went into your blind rage against all bombers and ground attack planes, after you got ripped to shreds a few times by me & one of my squadmates.

So tell me please, seriously, is there any chance we can drive away the moron you are now and bring back the old Goodknight?

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

faustnik
01-27-2004, 11:45 AM
I'm not sure why they are jumping all over you either Future http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif You said you don't think the AI is realistic. As far as realism, flying a lone B-17 using externals on a DF server is about as far from a realistic situation as you can get. If they don't like the situation get the heck out of the server.

The B-17 gunner fire in FB is brutal, there is little question of that. I would hate to see this changed however. The numbers of B-17s that can used in FB are very small. The AI effectiveness makes up for this somewhat.

Our 190 schwarm has spent a lot of time developing tactics to break up bomber boxes and take then down. When we execute perfectly, we can take down several bombers with light casualties. When we get out of position or bounced by escort, it's a different story. Results seem very realistic.

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DONB3397
01-27-2004, 11:47 AM
It seems logical to me that computer-managed (AI) guns are likely to calculate deflection and target area more effectively...and without emotion. It must be true, because they shoot me out of the sky so often.

But I don't want to see them dumbed down, either.

G. Rall, the LW 109 ace, said it was suicide to attack a B-17 box from the rear. With a single plane, the percentages were better -- you could kill the tail and belly gunner. One of the tactics adopted by the LW is the same as several ppl have posted here; 12 o-clock high and straight down through the bomber stream.

In FB, you can take off a wing with 20 mm at the roots. But I agree, there's no way to play around a bomber's six while you make leisurely passes. Rear gunners in IL-2s and, on the flip side, Ju-87s can take down fighters with in-line engines, too.

You're all on the right track, I think. Identify tactics that work in this game, and practice til you...survive.

Winning isn't everything;
It's the only thing!
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US380thBG-Tug-
01-27-2004, 01:35 PM
Damn, I'm late to the party.

Let's get this out of the way immediately: there isn't a single person with any significant amount of bomber time who will assert that AI gunner behavior is "realistic".

It isn't.

The fact remains, however, that the quality of the AI gunners -be they snipers, chumps, or so-so- is irrelevant. The truth of this assertion is evident in the equilibrium existing each day, on each server that includes bombers in the plane set: there are people who are willing to fly bombers and there are others that are willing to attack them.

In other words, it's play balance not realism. Let it go.

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kamaradskii
01-27-2004, 03:09 PM
interesting,
Im a noob in this game and I've been wondering why the ai gunners were so good and its hell to attack a bomber in the game.
I've seen the training tracks where a fighter takes on 4 bombers and succeeds but when I try to do it, I fail miserably.

Kampfmeister
01-27-2004, 08:25 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sledgehammer2:
Is the DM for the 109s accurate? If I make a run on a bomber it seems that I catch a couple of bullets and the damn windshield gets covered in oil and the engine gets knocked out. I realize attacking bombers is risky, but it seems that in the 109s it's pointless to even try! Any thoughts on this?
-----------------------------------------------------

I'm late as usual to these threads. A lot has already been said about the AI gunners and how effective they are, but I think a lot of you guys have gotten off on the wrong tangent. The original post talked about the vulnerabilities of the 109 against bombers or more to the point enemy fire. No matter how effectively you attack a bomber in a 109, if you end up taking a few rounds, and chances are you probably will, your toast. Was the 109 that easy to shoot down? Were the DB 601's or DB 605 inline powerplants that touchy that it only took one or two rounds to put it out of action. Didn't the 109's have any armor? I think you see what I'm getting at.

Back when I played IL2 before I finally got FB, which wasn't that long ago, I noticed this and ran a little experiment. I flew various fighter aircraft (109, 190, Lagg, Yak, Mig, etc.) against a lone bomber. An IL2 I think. Anyway, I didn't attack the bomber but just followed it on it's six and deliberately took fire from the rear gunner. The results were predictable. The Migs, Yaks, 190's and especially the Lagg's could take a lot more hits before they became inoperable. But after only one or two hits in the engine of the 109, I'd had it. Smoke started pouring out of the engine, at which point I knew I only had about five minutes before the engine would seize up and quit. Not even enough time to make it back to the airfield. Where as I've seen some Russian AI's that were belching smoke make it all the way back to their airfields. Some would even be on fire and could still manage to travel further than I could have in my smoking 109.

I've yet to run this experiment in FB. I'm sure the results won't be too different. Maybe I'll get a chance this weekend http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

CRSutton
01-28-2004, 02:13 PM
I am on offline flier and don't spend hours playing the game. My flying skills are gonna stay pretty basic. That is pretty much it. Most people who buy this game would fit my parameters. The ability to set AI gunnery and flak skill to different levels (without making all pilots green) would be a great thing. As a pilot, I am a total wanker. Its just a game. I play it for fun. Fun is occasionaly shooting a bomber down. I would like to be able to set enemy gunners to suit my skill level.

Anybody here ever sucessfully complete a torpedo run in an HE111? Virtually Impossible.