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fulanito_chile
03-23-2004, 03:42 AM
i bought an aircraft book the other day and saw that most modern plane are still have cannons be it big vulcan cannons but never the less still cannons.... but i can't imagen the dogfights still exist? with missiles and ultra high speeds... Does the classical IL-2 Style of dogfight still exist?? or when was the last ture dogfight? (maybe Falklands or Vietnam?)

"The Chilean Airforce" (FACH) The 4th oldest in the World...

fulanito_chile
03-23-2004, 03:42 AM
i bought an aircraft book the other day and saw that most modern plane are still have cannons be it big vulcan cannons but never the less still cannons.... but i can't imagen the dogfights still exist? with missiles and ultra high speeds... Does the classical IL-2 Style of dogfight still exist?? or when was the last ture dogfight? (maybe Falklands or Vietnam?)

"The Chilean Airforce" (FACH) The 4th oldest in the World...

Maple_Tiger
03-23-2004, 04:10 AM
Well if you where in WW3 and managed to use up you missiles then you are in deep ****. Might aswell run for home lol... but then i realy can't see it being impossible to get behind an enemy jet, he cant lock a missile on you from behind i dont think? Thoughs cannons would be pretty deadly i think. But i dont think i would try it if the enemy plane still had a wingman lol.

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WOLFMondo
03-23-2004, 04:39 AM
I think most modern jet combat is about the fastest and longest range stand off Air to air missile and having a radar system that can track targets further out than your opponents.

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SeaFireLIV
03-23-2004, 04:45 AM
It would be very unlikely to ever get the `classic` dogfight these days. Even if both sides` aircraft used up their missiles they`d probably bug out. But it is possible in theory (that`s why jets still have guns).

A situation simply hasn`t happened yet where jets have had to fight with guns alone. It would be a very interesting scenario to occur and not just the dogfight, but how it came about.

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roybaty
03-23-2004, 04:55 AM
Well, the new AIM-9X missile is reported to have the capability to do a high G turn astern. The latest incarnations of the su-27 (su-34/35) have been fitted with tail radar and rearward firing missiles.

Couple this with AWACs data links, GPS and inertial guidence I don't see why a missile couldn't be targeted by a fighter using radar datalink info from the AWACs to fire at targets behind it (of course they have to be far enough behind to allow the missile to turn 180).


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maple_Tiger:
Well if you where in WW3 and managed to use up you missiles then you are in deep ****. Might aswell run for home lol... but then i realy can't see it being impossible to get behind an enemy jet, he cant lock a missile on you from behind i dont think? Thoughs cannons would be pretty deadly i think. But i dont think i would try it if the enemy plane still had a wingman lol.

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<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Leif_Eriksson
03-23-2004, 04:57 AM
Yes, they do still occur. I saw it in the film "Top Gun" (feat. Tom Cruise) from the late eighties. After using up their missiles, they resorted to gun-to-gun combat with the enemy MiG's.

Leif Eriksson

609IAP_Recon
03-23-2004, 05:09 AM
According to many quotes, etc... dogfighting stopped after world war I.

Salute!

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NegativeGee
03-23-2004, 05:15 AM
As missile technolgy has improved, guns have become less important in air to air combat. They still offer a viable weapon system however, in the Falklands War, Sea Harriers made 23 confirmed air to air kills, 3.5 of which were made with 30mm Aden cannon.

I don't recall if any guns kills were made in more recent conflicts.

Interestingly, the British MoD has decided not to fit the 27mm Mauser cannon to the RAF's EuroFighters (although the initial run of 55 planes do retain the gun) as its use is no longer deemed nescessary.

See:
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmdfence/528/52804.htm

The way of things to come? or will the RAF end up following the US route with the F-4 Phantom, where guns were fitted retrospectively in Vietnam?

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Slush69
03-23-2004, 05:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Leif_Eriksson:
Yes, they do still occur. I saw it in the film "Top Gun" (feat. Tom Cruise) from the late eighties. After using up their missiles, they resorted to gun-to-gun combat with the enemy MiG's.

Leif Eriksson<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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cheers/slush

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HARD_Sarge
03-23-2004, 05:17 AM
Greesh
I don't believe you people, you sound like they did after WWI, the age of Dogfighting is over

come on think about it, the only thing that has changes is the speed and the range of the fight, instead of doing a turn in 180 ft, it can be miles now

guns are still used in Air to Air combat, and even with Rockets and missles, it is still not just fly level and fire, you still have to use BCM to get into postion to fire, so you do dogfight with missles also (just the range is much greater)

it is going to be getting HARDer and HARDer, most missles can now take a lot of G strain then any plane can, so ducking and dodgeing missiles is going to be super human to do (which is why so much work is going into pilotless planes)

HARD_Sarge

as long as there are people in the planes, they are going to fight in them

Lt.Davis
03-23-2004, 05:20 AM
A good example ID4 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Speed is the KEY.

Rajvosa
03-23-2004, 05:37 AM
Dogfight is still alive! Russians never abandoned it, forcing the Americans to rethink their strategies. In Korea, dogfight was still used. In Vietnam, nimble MiG-21 flew circles around the big, sophisticated, but cannon-less F4-Phantom. Only the advanced aircombat training (aka Top Gun) equalled the score toward the end of conflict. That and the added cannon.

USAAF learned their lesson and never built another air superiority fighter without a cannon. F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18 and now F-22 all have cannon to prevent a situation like in Vietnam.

If you look at Russian designs, they all have excellent maneuverability. MiG-21 and 29, Su-27 and it's offspring.

May the dogfight live another 90 years!

Regards,

Jasko

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WWSensei
03-23-2004, 06:17 AM
Gunfights seldom occur but the cannon on the Viper isn't just for air-to-air. It makes an effective soft target ground attack weapon as well provided the environment isn't totally hostile.

"Dogfights" do still happen. If you truly think modern air combat is simply push button warfare then you really know nothing of modern air combat and tactics. It's akin to taking a toy car and going "vrooom vrooom" and thinking you know all about driving in the Indy 500.

BFM and ACM are still used today like they were nearly 100 years ago. The speeds are higher and distances greater, but Energy management is still the key.

They've changed due to missiles and ECM, ECCM, 90 off aspect WEZs etc and the complexity is several orders of magnitude more difficult than before. While the weapons we could kill with improved so did the weapons that could kill us.

How many of you don't play with the brain dead simplicity of CEM in FB because you find it too complex?

maxim26
03-23-2004, 06:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Leif_Eriksson:
Yes, they do still occur. I saw it in the film "Top Gun" (feat. Tom Cruise) from the late eighties. After using up their missiles, they resorted to gun-to-gun combat with the enemy MiG's.

Leif Eriksson<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No man, Tom Cruise in Top Gan used guns because "the range is to close for the misssiles"http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Wich is BS. F-14 doesnt have a short range missiles? Even with long range missile the closer you are, more chances you have to hit the target.

And if you guys think that modern air combat is only pushing buttons, you are copmpletly wrong. It's not thet easy to hit somthing with the missile as it seems. First, you have to lock target wich is very chalanging, then not to loose lock until you reach the effective range, and then the chances to score are not very high because you opponent can play with you missile and make it bleed all energy, or just break the lock. Thet is why all modern jets have cannons, because it is much more reliable weapon.

Russians studdied the history of all modern air conflicts starting with Korea and they came to the conclusion thet majority of engagements started with the missiles launch and ended with cannon bursts. Thet is why next generations of Su and Migs will be agial fighters with good cannons.

Leif_Eriksson
03-23-2004, 07:05 AM
I was joking.

Regards,
Leif Eriksson

tomwilliams007
03-23-2004, 10:38 AM
Ha haa the harriers used there cannon to shoot don 6 Argentinan Mirages

Breeze147
03-23-2004, 10:43 AM
Therefore the following rules will apply for signatures. Could everyone please check their signatures and ensure they meet these new guidelines.

- Limited to one image per signature or a short text.
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TAGERT.
03-23-2004, 10:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fulanito_chile:
i bought an aircraft book the other day and saw that most modern plane are still have cannons be it big vulcan cannons but never the less still cannons.... but i can't imagen the dogfights still exist? with missiles and ultra high speeds... Does the classical IL-2 Style of dogfight still exist?? or when was the last ture dogfight? (maybe Falklands or Vietnam?)

"The Chilean Airforce" (FACH) The 4th oldest in the World...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The one thing we learned from our *all missles* Phantom in the 60's is that you should never design to depend on tech.. Many have talked about running out of missles.. It aint really even that.. Guns are a back up for when all else (tech) fails.. AND.. for the *what if*.. As in what if the enmy develops a counter mesure that makes your missles useless.. As unlikly as that may seem.. it was that closed minded *unlikly* attatude that made the inital version of the F4 Phantom gunless.. After *learing* they put guns on the F4 Phantom...

It is that unforseen what if that will limit us in teh UAV fighter dept.. We may develop UAV fighters some day.. But due to the unforseen aspects I *belive* we will allways have an aircraft online that can carry a pilot.. Just my opinion.

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horseback
03-23-2004, 11:11 AM
Most missiles have a MINIMUM range; that is, a range where there isn't time for the warhead to arm or get the "lock" to hold due to the severity of the target's crossing angle. Phantom II drivers in Vietnam found out the hard way that sometimes it's hard to get the enemy into the optimum position for a missile shoot. The Vietnamese realized that if they got into knife fighting range, the F-4s couldn't go offensive, and that meant that they had lost the initiative. The result was the development of the F-4E, F-14, and F-15 models, all having cannon armament.

Although the technology has made quantum leaps, there are still limits that a good gun can fill admirably. A gun gives you a "right now" solution that missile does not.

Most air to air missiles are still either IR or semi-active homing (meaning that you have to maintain a radar lock until it hits your target, imposing limits on your defensive ability), and every missile has an 'envelope' that the target must be within (and stay within) in order to reliably hit it. You have to get some kind of acquisition, and make sure your target's data is held by your missile before you launch it. Within 500m, a gun can be just as effective as a missile, and should take less time to select.

Besides, 200 rounds of 20 mike-mike is a LOT cheaper than a Sidewinder (and a lot more fun, too). There will be dogfights as long as there are "cocky little b@astards with big wristwatches" flying fighters.

cheers

horseback

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Taylortony
03-23-2004, 11:36 AM
Yes they do, maybe not in the conventional terms, but its still a turning fight, just the weaponary is more advanced, if they get in close you need to get round behind them to use your heat seekers......... I used to go to Sardina to ACMI which is an Air combat training range although this has now closed, the UK has one over the north sea....... During Vietnam the US found to there chargrin, that due to the political situation back home they were required to close and visually identify their target before engaging, the first Tombs were not equiped with a gun and that then put them at a disadvantage so a programme was initiated to retrofit the vulcan gun in the Phantoms.

fulanito_chile
03-23-2004, 03:55 PM
thanks guys cleared that up... and of course how could i have forgot TopGun!

"The Chilean Airforce" (FACH) The 4th oldest in the World...

Lav69
03-23-2004, 05:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maple_Tiger:
Well if you where in WW3 and managed to use up you missiles then you are in deep ****. Might aswell run for home lol... but then i realy can't see it being impossible to get behind an enemy jet, he cant lock a missile on you from behind i dont think? Thoughs cannons would be pretty deadly i think. But i dont think i would try it if the enemy plane still had a wingman lol.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/pd6c878f0006c224805da6c9645408b41/fb291d3e.jpg

Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can get locked from behind but when chasing it changes your missiles range because a missle only burns for the first few seconds after launch then it is inertially carried to target. So if moving fast enough it prolly won't catch target except for at very close range and lower target speeds.

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roybaty
03-23-2004, 05:30 PM
Well traditional dogfights IMO are not gonna happen unless there is an extreme change in the worlds airforces. I think most engagements will remain BVR.

Well most of our (speaking from a US POV) adversaries lately have either been:

- good pilots with bad equipment (Kosovo Fulcrums were well flown, but had nonfunctional radar)

- bad pilots, good equipment (Libyan Gulf of Sidra incidents)

- bad/nonmotivated pilots, and okay equpment (Gulf War #1)

Not to mention in all cases overwhelming airsuperiority (although the Libyan had a good amount of the latest frontline craft of the day).

Basically a war with two powerful, advanced, and competent airforces hasn't occurred in the last 30 years if you count the Israelis and Syrians in the early 80's and that was pretty one-sided.

Not to mention most Russian based designs being acquired/built still have a relatively huge RCS, and will be detected, engaged , and destroyed at range before they have any chance by manned/unmanned aircraft.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not on some power trip about how capable the USAF/USN are, but the simple fact is, unless other countries acquire new generation fighters or the US shelves the development/production of new designs we are untouchable in the air. From what I can tell we WILL have new generation fighters but it is being debated wether they should be manned or remote controlled/automated.

But whatever we put in the air will always have a gun...just in case http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

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Taylortony
03-23-2004, 05:49 PM
Basically a war with two powerful, advanced, and competent airforces hasn't occurred in the last 30 years if you count the Israelis and Syrians in the early 80's and that was pretty one-sided.


being ex RAF i agree, you could count us out at the falklands http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Still a Harrier sawed the wing off a Herc with the good old Mk 1 Projectile if i remember correctly...

roybaty
03-23-2004, 09:18 PM
Hehe, sorry about that. Did Britain suffer any air combat losses in the Falklands? I do recall that the Argentinians were damn persistant and successful at first by agressively attacking RN ships.

But the Fleet Air Arm laid waste to both ground and air targets. I remember reading an article about the port stanley raid years back in a magazine. One plane was damaged by AAA, knocked out his rudder trim tab control. A few SAMs were fired but none hit anyone.

Pretty on sided, though they did take out a few ships.

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WUAF_Badsight
03-23-2004, 09:38 PM
RAF Eurofighters will be recieveing 27 mm cannon retrofitted

ALL Eurofighters will have them

just about the most effective A2A cannon ever made

Snow_Wolf_
03-23-2004, 09:39 PM
Ever since the lessons learn in Vietnam where U.S fighters find themselves out of missiles and can't engage the nme (while the NVA still have there nice migs cannons) they went back to the old style dogfight design on planes where if you run out of missile you can still shoot that guy down. But you wouldn't see much dogfights like in WW2, fact being you can nail the plane 100 miles away before you even see him. But it does not mean that dogfights have went obselete (cause look at top gun ). Not to say the last fighter pilots are out now (fact being it use to be the Man in the old days but now it all about the machine, and the machine can take more then what the man can). I for see that in the not so near future that Fighters pilots will be replace with computers which would fly jet while the pilot itself seats at the back of a monitor watch the fight and flying the bird with a joystick......

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darkhorizon11
03-23-2004, 11:27 PM
To a certain extent they do, though in isolated conflicts like the first Iraqi war where the fight is extremely lopsided there really isn't. (I put up a post on the Jet sims vs. Prop sims.) thread which addresses this.

Menthol_moose
03-23-2004, 11:39 PM
Does anyone know how many cannon kills there was in Gulf war 1.0 ?
all i heard about is a a-10 blowing a chopper to pieces with the GAU.

Or how many of the F-15's 100+ kills were made with cannon ?

tried looking but its not easy stuff to find http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

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JR_Greenhorn
03-23-2004, 11:42 PM
What of the ATA missile-avoidance abilities of Faster Than Normal aircraft such as the MiG-25 and YF-12? Fact or farce? Comments?

Stalker58
03-24-2004, 12:41 AM
No

Altitude, speed, manoeuvre and.... CRASH!

Rajvosa
03-24-2004, 12:52 AM
That's a very nasty and provocative sig menthol-moose!

Regards,

Jasko

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Slush69
03-24-2004, 02:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Menthol_moose:

(...)

http://images.somethingawful.com/mjolnir/images/cg09162003/Solvalou.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not easily pissed off, but I sure don't find that sig funny.

/slush

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NegativeGee
03-24-2004, 06:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by roybaty:
Hehe, sorry about that. Did Britain suffer any air combat losses in the Falklands? I do recall that the Argentinians were damn persistant and successful at first by agressively attacking RN ships.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There was one Scout helicopter lost to an air to air gun attack by a Pucara on May 28th.

Harrier loses during the Falklands (IIRC):

Sea Harrier:
SAM: 1
AAA: 1
Other: 2 - mid air collision
1 take off accident at night
1 deck accident due to high winds

Harrier GR3:
SAM: 1
AAA: 2

A question, WUAF_Badsight, have the MoD now changed their minds on the Mauser guns for EuroFighter for the RAF?

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

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Zyzbot
03-24-2004, 08:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Menthol_moose:
Does anyone know how many cannon kills there was in Gulf war 1.0 ?
all i heard about is a a-10 blowing a chopper to pieces with the GAU.

Or how many of the F-15's 100+ kills were made with cannon ?

tried looking but its not easy stuff to find http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Try this link for Gulf war air kills by type of aircraft and weapon.

http://www.rjlee.org/aakill.html

huggy87
03-24-2004, 11:15 AM
Dogfighting is as important as ever before! BVR kills rarely if ever happen, mostly due to the difficulty of IDing a target as Positively Hostile at range. 95% of missile age kills have been within visual range. Look at the latest big air-to-air war: Israel vs. Syria in the early 80's. Most kills were with the aim-9, a handful with the gun and a handful with sparrows.

Horseback was right on the money. Supposing an enemy lives past the merge, you want to fight as close as possible to him to get within the min range of his missile envelope and kill him as quickly as possible. That means the gun is still a very viable weapon.

That being said, the JSF is being built sans gun. Possibly because the latest generation of short range missiles has such short min ranges and awesome capabilities.