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XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 11:27 AM
Forget all this other stuff. When is the patch coming to fix what we have. And while we are talking about patches. Has anywone flown IL-2 LATELY. Wow what a smooth ride it is compared to FB. I hope its out soon. People are getting a little dispondent about this.

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 11:27 AM
Forget all this other stuff. When is the patch coming to fix what we have. And while we are talking about patches. Has anywone flown IL-2 LATELY. Wow what a smooth ride it is compared to FB. I hope its out soon. People are getting a little dispondent about this.

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 11:50 PM
Two Weeks....
The patch will be out in.....two weeks /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

"Murphy's Law"

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 12:03 AM
actually they said two weeks two weeks ago.

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XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 12:53 AM
wasn't it "3-4 weeks" ?

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 01:00 AM
The patch will be here later.
So there!

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Ye Jacobites by name, lend an ear,
Ye Jacobites by name,
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XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 01:21 AM
tis never coming all bull http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 01:25 AM
they'll always say it's 2 weeks.. at least it's not like 3d Realms saying that Duke Nukem Forever will be out "when it's done"

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 01:35 AM
I think this patch will make or break this sim personally

S!
609IAP_Recon

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XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 01:48 AM
Recon_609IAP wrote:
- I think this patch will make or break this sim
- personally

Huh?



TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 04:39 AM
Either toward being a sim or becoming more arcade.

The shift has been very arcadish in the FM -- the original IL2 demo was closer to a good FM compared to what we have now - it's become more and more arcade through the patches.

Let's see what direction is taken this time - it undergoes major changes every patch.


Look at the P39 for example, etc...

S!
609IAP_Recon

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XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 06:43 AM
I'm afraid of later...

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 07:22 AM
you know what it is?

it's people complaining so much about everything.. "this plane doesn't have this, in real life it did!!" "that plane doesn't fly so well, in real life it did!!" "these bullets don't do much to other planes, in real life they did!!!"

and then the developers try to help out and stop all the arguing by improving the planes. then they improve them too much. the planes become super planes. and if no one had whined to begin with, none of this would have ever happened.

so don't blame the makers of the patch. blame the whiners who demand so much that the developers try to obey their every whim and thus make planes uber.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 07:42 AM
People must have complained a lot about russian planes then in the original IL2 for the programmers to make them the way they are now in FB /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

MOH_TRACKER wrote:
- ...
- and then the developers try to help out...
- ...then they improve them too much...
- ...the planes become super planes...

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 07:43 AM
What evidence do you have that the game developers even read half of the posts on this forum? The only issue I hae seen Oleg respond to is the FW-190 view and all he said there was that the view in the current game is right. I personally don't think they address anything unless it is a common complaint from a lot of people. I went through the technical support process of solving a problem and finally the support person said she would let the game designers know about the problem.

What I find interesting is when the moderators or just people who frequent this forum answer the "when is the patch coming" question with "it will be here when it is done" reply like they work for ubi soft or something. Why would you defend a company when you don't work for it against people with legitimate questions and complaints? I guess it is a case of self-appointed corporate tools.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 07:57 AM
You people b itch and wine too freakin much. You want everything, if Oleg did every little thing you people wine and complain about, he'd spend the rest of his life coding, and no one's ever satisfied, once the next patch comes out, it'll be followed by praise just like Forgotten Battles, which i've never had a problem with, only to be followed by constant whining, give the man a break. He gives you people more support then could be asked of a game designer, no one accepts the fact that he's doing more than he has to, when you buy a game, you're buying the product as is, you get what you see, but when a developer says they'll make patches and free add ons in their own accord, that's something else. No one makes them, so take the support you're getting, and calm down, and people need to lay off the moderators, they're just doing their job in keeping us from reading troll crap like this, The patch will come, go outside and get some sunlight until then


~Aaron White

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XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 09:39 AM
A perfect example......

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 10:49 AM
actionhank1786 you`re so...funny./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

"degustibus non disputandum"

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XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 01:23 PM
Recon_609IAP wrote:
- Either toward being a sim or becoming more arcade.
-
- The shift has been very arcadish in the FM -- the
- original IL2 demo was closer to a good FM compared
- to what we have now - it's become more and more
- arcade through the patches.
-
- Let's see what direction is taken this time - it
- undergoes major changes every patch.
-
-
- Look at the P39 for example, etc...
-


So I take it you've flown every WWII aircraft in combat and can thus compare their performance to their simulated counterparts in FB?

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XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 01:47 PM
Have you?

Does one have to fly every WW2 aircraft to know if FM is right or wrong?

Do I have to smoke crack to know it's bad for me? LOL


S!
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Message Edited on 07/07/0303:35PM by Recon_609IAP

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 03:16 PM
WOW! People whining about people whining. Who cares, I for one have done my share of whining as well. But I have learned that it doesnt make a difference.


Dang I dont even know where I was going with this post. F'it its your game you can cry if you want to...carry on.


1-800-waaambalance hotline...it helped me /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 07:44 PM
i get pi s off easyly dam it, the russian planes arent the only one over model, just look at the dam bf109k4 dam it, it climbs like a chopper, please cut the dam crap about that they made the allies planes so that they had no problem with the axis planes, stop lying to your god dam self dam it, just because u all suck doesnt mean the plane suck!

"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 08:15 PM
Red_Storm wrote:
-

- So I take it you've flown every WWII aircraft in
- combat and can thus compare their performance to
- their simulated counterparts in FB?
-


I doubt Recon has flown the a/c but, I'm sure he can read. His example of the P-39 is perfect. The Cobra was a challenge to fly in IL-2. It exhibited all of the difficult stall and spin characterisctics found in the historical record. Learning to fly the P-39 was a challenge and being successful with it was very rewarding. The FB model can be thrown around the sky with reckless abandon. What was a difficult plane to fly has now become an easy to fly killing machine.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 09:52 PM
Fact:

There are several versions of "The Patch" being beta tested by many pilots on-line to brovide Ubi with feedback so the one version that will be released can be selected.

So, here is where we can voice our wishes for the software yet to be released:

1. Realistic FM to give accurate perofrmance.

2. Playability with large-scale online wars such as Iron Skies and Forgotten War. I'd gladly trade features and "eye-candy" for complex scenerio playability. I want to host missions with 24-36 human pilots along with ai aircraft and multiple ground targets.


Remember when you could fly one of DR_Hanger's IL-2 missions and become involved with 36 aircraft, ai as well as human and have reasonable performance? I'd like that and more from FB ! FB should be everything IL-2 was and more without trading off playability. It should play BETTER.


So, I'll be patient, don't want the patch to be rushed because if it lives up to my expectations I plan on flying this sim for quite a long time in many wars to come.

Mtn.

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 02:36 AM
Why on earth would the developers or anyone associated with FB spend any time reading this forum?

Its full of personal attacks, ridiculous demands, comments regarding aircraft flight models from uneducated idiots etc etc.....

So Oleg trots of to work in a happy mood and thinks to himself "I know I will just pop into the UBI forum because I need to raise my blood pressure and get depressed".

People posting in here do not regard anybody associated with FB as human but merely names that they can insult at will - to be blunt, you have got the forum that you deserve.

BobCat



Message Edited on 07/08/0301:37AM by III.JG11_BobCat

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 02:43 AM
III.JG11_BobCat wrote:
- Why on earth would the developers or anyone
- associated with FB spend any time reading this
- forum?
-
- Its full of personal attacks, ridiculous demands,
- comments regarding aircraft flight models from
- uneducated idiots etc etc.....


Yep, and seeing a post like this make me trolling it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 03:23 AM
Recon_609IAP wrote:
- Either toward being a sim or becoming more arcade.

Ah, ok, thought you were talking $...

- The shift has been very arcadish in the FM
- the original IL2 demo was closer to a good
- FM compared to what we have now - it's become
- more and more arcade through the patches.

Disagree.

- Let's see what direction is taken this time - it
- undergoes major changes every patch.

Major changes... as in major Bug fixxes?

- Look at the P39 for example, etc...

Well the P39 is probally the most tested, and thus, well documented WWII era aircraft. I have several NACA reports on it myself, and, what little I do know about it I see in the game now... In a nut shell it was very Fw190 like in acc stalls and sucked at 20K and above.. With that said... Just want was it that was changed that you feel was more real before? And with that said... it is easy to say ETC.. but give me one dang example of each AC you feel became more arcadish.. in that it use to exhibit a realistic behavior and now it does not... Just one from each of thoses ETC.. let alone the P39... Than, and only then will I begin to buy into your expertise in this area, and then your theory of arcadish creep.




TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 09:00 AM
AchimT wrote:
- People must have complained a lot about russian
- planes then in the original IL2 for the programmers
- to make them the way they are now in FB /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
LMAO

You know thats right-



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I am alive forevermore.
I am the Alpha and the Omega
the Begining and the End.</div> <center>

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XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 02:17 PM
I won't be buying the next product as soon as it comes out.

No more $ for reputation. Bottom line. I've paid enough, what I have is not good for me.

Tagert: Climb the Hurri II at 110-120 kph to 7000m, or the Yak 3 and tell me about real. That goes for the climbs in most planes. Ditto effect on turns. Accel is too fast.

The first fix was slowing the roll rate of the P39, which was awfully fast. The next wasn't so bad. I liked IL2 and all the changes myself, except that the DM of some planes needed tweaking very much and the AI could have stood improvement.

The big step to FB should have been put off longer and IL2 should have been one last polish only to the DM's... okay there was one major problem still unfixed. Trimmed flight being more effective by far than holding stick has always been a problem. Trim is supposed to adjust forces on the stick but it is also some kind of less drag magic, like control surface drag is measured by stick deflection and not control surface deflection.

I guess they ran out of money or saw the cash crunch coming. I'd rather have sent $ for a small fix to IL2 than the same $ for a sim I don't want to play. No more buying blind.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 12:04 AM
Is there any inside infromation about when the Patch is going to be released?

Hot Space

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 12:51 AM
On the plus side, if the patch is delayed enough, we'll be able to play LO:MAC to pass the time.

Then on the second day, it was made bug free, and He saw that it was good.

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 04:38 AM
WWMaxGunz wrote:
- I won't be buying the next product as soon as it
- comes out.

Ok.

- No more $ for reputation. Bottom line. I've paid
- enough, what I have is not good for me.

Define good? Because I get the impression that your good means perfect? Keep in mind that NO sim now or EVER will be perfect!! Well at least util we all have the MATRIX connect at the base of the skull. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- Tagert: Climb the Hurri II at 110-120 kph to 7000m,
- or the Yak 3 and tell me about real.

Ok.. but first, you tell me what you think it should be, and give me your reference. And keep in mind that I put more credit into a NACA type of report then what is writen on the side of a Revell model box.

- That goes for the climbs in most planes.
- Ditto effect on turns. Accel is too fast.

So easy to toss those statments out there... guess that is why people do it so often... But, if you want to impress me, state your data and where it came from, then tell me how you tested it in the game.. Fuel load, sea level or mountain top, etc. Otherwise I just toss those types of complants on the pile marked WAAAAAAAAAAAAA!




TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 09:45 AM
tagert wrote:
- WWMaxGunz wrote:
-- I won't be buying the next product as soon as it
-- comes out.
-
- Ok.
-
-- No more $ for reputation. Bottom line. I've paid
-- enough, what I have is not good for me.
-
- Define good? Because I get the impression that your
- good means perfect? Keep in mind that NO sim now or
- EVER will be perfect!! Well at least util we all
- have the MATRIX connect at the base of the skull.
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif -
-- Tagert: Climb the Hurri II at 110-120 kph to 7000m,
-- or the Yak 3 and tell me about real.

I've been playing decent flight sims since 1986 and arcade ones since 1980-81. Got to hard core in 98. Don't much like modern jet sims since 96 (too many buttons and MFD type stuff). And I do know a bit about flight, even had some hands on but those weren't warplanes so I go from specs and accounts and don't grouse on Fine Points.

I also wrote code for almost 20 years. Yeah, I know that no PC sim can be perfect.

- Ok.. but first, you tell me what you think it should
- be, and give me your reference. And keep in mind
- that I put more credit into a NACA type of report
- then what is writen on the side of a Revell model
- box.

I haven't read the side of Revell box since maybe 1971. Encyclopedia Britannica however, I did read about AC in that till about 73. What does your NACA report say about the climb rate of a Hurri II at about 75 mph? Should it have a sustained climb of over 2000 fpm at that speed? Huh? How close to stall is 110-120 kph? I really think that the example I gave was just a BIT obvious and not needing experts and tables.

If you fly a real plane level and slow down enough you can keep it level but neither can you speed up or climb. Did you know that? It's called flying the backside of the curve. The only way you can change the state is to lose alt once you've gotten speed that far down. I wonder what that speed is for the Hurri II... I wonder what stall speed is for the Hurri II? Or landing speed? You suppose one could stay aloft at 50 mph? They don't in FB. They either stall out and fall or if you go about 20mph faster you can climb *very* well! Yah, I don't need any NACA report to spot that one!

-- That goes for the climbs in most planes.
-- Ditto effect on turns. Accel is too fast.

- So easy to toss those statments out there... guess
- that is why people do it so often... But, if you
- want to impress me, state your data and where it
- came from, then tell me how you tested it in the
- game.. Fuel load, sea level or mountain top, etc.
- Otherwise I just toss those types of complants on
- the pile marked WAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

I do assume you HAVE those NACA reports and aren't just tossing NACA out there...........................

When I see a movie with people jumping over buildings, flying and standing supported on thin tree branches while swordfighting, I don't believe that's real either. Some things just go too far. Get out your NACA reports and check acceleration of planes sometime too. If the IL2 FM was any close to real then the FB FM as it stands must be a good ways off. Funny, but the upcoming patch is supposed to be fixing the FB FM to some degree. Why is that?


Neal

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 04:47 PM
WWMaxGunz wrote:
-- Define good? Because I get the impression that your
-- good means perfect? Keep in mind that NO sim now or
-- EVER will be perfect!! Well at least util we all
-- have the MATRIX connect at the base of the skull.
--- Tagert: Climb the Hurri II at 110-120 kph to 7000m,
--- or the Yak 3 and tell me about real.
-
- I've been playing decent flight sims since 1986 and
- arcade ones since 1980-81.

Got hooked while playing a sim on a commodore SX-64 in 1985

- Got to hard core in 98.

That late huh? The first so called hard core sim I played was Air Warrior online Geine network... But also did the likes of Chuck Yeager, Red Baron, SWOTL, AOTP and AOE.. where I made addons/mods (AOTP 1946II, AOE II) for the later two. They were about as hard core as you could get back in 1991 on a 286.

- Don't much like modern jet sims since 96 (too many
- buttons and MFD type stuff).

Same here... never really got into Falcon, Falcon AT, or Falcon 3.0, got Falcon 4.0... installed it, played it for about an hour, then deleted it. I just like old WWII and Korea stuff better... I get enough TECH stuff at work, don't need it in my play! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- And I do know a bit about flight, even had some
- hands on but those weren't warplanes

Same here, not a pilot by any means, but have held the wheel a few times!

- so I go from specs and accounts and don't grouse
- on Fine Points.

Specs are good, but accounts... Well it really depends who is reading them and what their initial biases are. I have seen guys read an account of a WWII pilot and run with that interpretation as if it was the only one possible... Which is hardly ever the case. And which is why I like the NACA reports so much! They were done by test pilots.. and their accounts were usually back up with some sort of measuring equipment (accelerometers and such) that and test pilots were very carful in how they described something, in that they knew RnD guys were basing alot on what they had to say.

- I also wrote code for almost 20 years.

About 10 years here, C/C++, MatLab, VHDL, Fortran, etc..

- Yeah, I know that no PC sim can be perfect.

Ah good!

- I haven't read the side of Revell box since maybe
- 1971. Encyclopedia Britannica however, I did read
- about AC in that till about 73.

Never said you did or do, just pointing out that I don't put much credence in the info that comes off the side of a Revell box!

- What does your NACA report say about the climb rate
- of a Hurri II at about 75 mph? Should it have a
- sustained climb of over 2000 fpm at that speed? Huh?
- How close to stall is 110-120 kph?

I've got alot of old NACA reports on alot of Old WWII AC.. P51B, P39, F4u, Spitfire and a few more about general testing but I don't have one on the Hurri. Which is not to imply there isn't one or that I cant get one. My college has all the old NACA reports on micro fish.. So if there was one, I could get it if needed. Just a pain in the A to do it, burns up a Saturday for sure just to get one report.

- I really think that the example I gave was
- just a BIT obvious and not needing experts
- and tables.

That is the problem with most people.. They tend to think their experience is all they need... As an Engineer I have learned to not be surprised anymore. I don't know much about the Hurr except that it was a great climber, had to be to intercept the bombers during BoB. That and it was not a typical AC.. So what I'm saying is, your gut reaction might be right.. might not, I don't know, all I know if I don't buy it until I see some hard data on it.


- If you fly a real plane level and slow down enough
- you can keep it level but neither can you speed up
- or climb. Did you know that?

Yup.

- It's called flying the backside of the curve.

A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet.

- The only way you can change the state is to lose
- alt once you've gotten speed that far down.

Agreed, a special case of AOA and such.

- I wonder what that speed is for the Hurri II...
- I wonder what stall speed is for the Hurri II?
- Or landing speed?

So.. let me see if I understand this correctly.. Your saying it is wrong.. and you don't have any of those numbers from any source? My.. we do put alot into our gut feelings don't we? Which might be ok for a pilot with 40 years experience and all... but a guy with 20 years of sim... (where 10 years of them were pretty arcadeish) and can count his hours in a real plane on one hand... Either you know something your not telling us here... or.. well Ill let that one go! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

-You suppose one could stay aloft at 50 mph?

Well let see.. The ZERO was a similar AC, made up of alot of wood and stuff like the Hurr.. and it is know for its climb and low stall speeds.. I don't have any numbers handy here.. but rule of thumb an AC with slow top speed usually had a low stall speed and good climb rate. So, again... some me some data that says it could not do it, or what it could do, then Ill buy into your gutt feelings! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- They don't in FB. They either stall out and fall
- or if you go about 20mph faster you can climb
- *very* well! Yah, I don't need any NACA report
- to spot that one!

Well, know this 20mph is a big deal! But feel free to *feel* that way! I don't really care what you *feel* I'm just pointing out that I wont buy into it without some data. That is just me though, I'm pretty hard core like that.. Some folks will take a WWII pilots statement of "Boy that baby could climb" and say that is enough to prove it could do it... I for one realize that a statement like that is out of context and is relevant to the time and place it was made, so, I don't put too much credence in it.

- I do assume you HAVE those NACA reports and aren't
- just tossing NACA out there

Got tons, and have access to even more if not all!

- When I see a movie with people jumping over
- buildings, flying and standing supported on thin
- tree branches while swordfighting, I don't believe
- that's real either. Some things just go too far.

Agreed.. and that is a DUH example, now be a little more realistic and draw that line a little closer to the truth of things... it get gray and wide!

- Get out your NACA reports and check acceleration of
- planes sometime too.

More times than I care to think about over the last 10 years.

- If the IL2 FM was any close to real then the FB
- FM as it stands must be a good ways off.

Based on your *feelings* or do you actually have *ANY* data to back up those *feelings*?

- Funny, but the upcoming patch is supposed to
- be fixing the FB FM to some degree. Why is that?

Why, because even though you say you know that software is not perfect.. You seem to forget that from time to time, this is one of those times! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif




TAGERT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If WAR was not the ANSWER.. Than what the H was your QUESTION?

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 09:09 PM
This forum is on its way down big time /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 09:13 PM
And why's that?

Hot Space

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 09:52 PM
It took 20 minutes for the Hurricanes to take off and get to 7000 meters in the BoB.. (apx per Colliers book)..

" The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down ": General Chuck Yeager, USAF, describing his first confrontation with a Me262 - - -
" Aggressiveness was a fundamental to success in air-to-air combat and if you ever caught a fighter pilot in a defensive mood you had him licked before you started shooting ": Captain David McCampbell, USN, leading U.S. Navy ace in W.W.II.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 10:10 PM
In FB it's 2 Mins?

Hot Space

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 11:43 PM
I didn't time it but more than 10 and less than 20 just running at 120kph. It's the over 2000fpm climb at near stall part that gets me. That translates to one hell of a slow speed turn capability for a plane that could not outturn a 109 at mid to high alts.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:21 PM
Hey look guys,
We all know, that IL-2/FB is the best Sim Graphicly and in ALL other areas that has yet been produced.

So here is somthing to Mull over, If your not happy with it then go fly CFS 2 or CFS 3 or EAW, or any other flight Sim you like, instead of constantly whining here about IL-2/FB.

lol!

Its really that simple.

S!

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:32 PM
Yes, but everyone on here is simple.

Hot Space

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 02:49 PM
Hurris stall will be adressed in the patch. There will also be improvements in FM and weapons and all kinds of stuff.. I'm really glad Oleg and the team are making an effort in making this a better game.

nobodys perfect, its not just the sim.. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif for example some ppl whine WAY too much

Maybe it would be good for yourselves to be happy with what u got because that may well be all you are getting and i dont just mean this sim.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 07:52 PM
Ditto:

They said two weeks, two weeks ago. They also said they were only fixing what "They" considered bugs. And no new planes, They said mabey in an update. "mabey"

hmmmm..mabey I'll just pull CFS off the shelf and quit waiting for this mystery patch that won't fix anything, or add new planes!!!

http://www.352ndfightergroup.com/shared_art/352_487.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 08:02 PM
Boy... you guys want to stop and listen to yourselves.... you all sound like a pack of ungrateful, whinging, whining, spoilt 5 year olds (not just this thread either).
If I was Oleg I would simply disappear into corporate anonymity and leave you spoilt brats to tear each other to pieces. Why he visits here anymore I can't imagine.


]http://bb.bbboy.net/bbgallery/Fantasy_&_Animals/wolfhowl.gif (http://bb.bbboy.net/bbgallery/Fantasy_&_Animals/wolfhowl.gif[/img)

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 08:18 PM
Do climbs in fb with fuel tanks full, i am sure u will tale more than 2 minutes

"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"