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cueceleches
08-09-2004, 03:30 AM
Hi!

I just got TIR 3 pro, and fell really impressed about it. It works great and have played quite a lot with lomac, giving a new level of inmersion.
Nevertheless, I´ve tried it with IL2 FB, and it also works great, but I fell a little bit confused. Until now, I used to play in no-cockpit servers. This week end, I´ve jumped into some FR servers, with no icons, no flight path, no nothing, and found it very very difficult to kill anything. Yes, TIR helps a lot in keeping a good situation awareness, but identifying enemy planes in a 17" monitor is rather difficult, and found myself most of the time bouncing on friendlies. So I´ve decided not to shoot anything until I see if on the wings there´s a red star or a black cross. This tactic makes me loose precious time and gets me shoot down most of the time.
My question is, is it a matter of getting used to TIR use, (which at times is a little bit disorienting)? I mean, could you please FR players, give me some combat tips on how to perform better? (a part from practicing and more practicing...)

Thanks a lot!

cueceleches
08-09-2004, 03:30 AM
Hi!

I just got TIR 3 pro, and fell really impressed about it. It works great and have played quite a lot with lomac, giving a new level of inmersion.
Nevertheless, I´ve tried it with IL2 FB, and it also works great, but I fell a little bit confused. Until now, I used to play in no-cockpit servers. This week end, I´ve jumped into some FR servers, with no icons, no flight path, no nothing, and found it very very difficult to kill anything. Yes, TIR helps a lot in keeping a good situation awareness, but identifying enemy planes in a 17" monitor is rather difficult, and found myself most of the time bouncing on friendlies. So I´ve decided not to shoot anything until I see if on the wings there´s a red star or a black cross. This tactic makes me loose precious time and gets me shoot down most of the time.
My question is, is it a matter of getting used to TIR use, (which at times is a little bit disorienting)? I mean, could you please FR players, give me some combat tips on how to perform better? (a part from practicing and more practicing...)

Thanks a lot!

VF-10_Snacky
08-09-2004, 04:31 AM
I really like the realism of having the cockpit and no external views, but too much realism can start to ruin gameplay IMO. This isn't the real thing and we don't have the luxary of perpheral vision,etc. We are viewing the world through a flat 17 or 19 inch monitor and there are certain aids you just have to have.
I like having some labels on at least the friendlies and being able to use padlock. Other than that everything else can be full real. I see no reason to restrict seeing your own aircraft on the map. Sure its a little more difficult to dead reckon and look for landmarks, but you can focus more on finding bad guys rather than figuring out where you are on the map.
We have the full arcade servers and the full real servers. What we need is something in between for those of us who want a balance of the two.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/531seawolf/f4ucorsr.jpg

Bearcat99
08-09-2004, 04:39 AM
All TIR does is help with the interface between you and tge sim. It wont make you see better. What I suggest is that you fly offline in a closee cockpit with no icons to get used to it. I actually prefer offline play with TIR... less pressure. I prefer no icons off and online but often online I make adjustments for others who are not as comfortable with no icons. I often switch TIR off when online since it sometimes will lock up or not center correctly... lately anyway.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
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IMMERSION BABY!!

cueceleches
08-09-2004, 04:39 AM
I agree. I would be happy with at least limited friendly labels. I guess that padlock is not necessary if you have TIR, but could be left enabled as many people do not have this little toy. And no icons, of course.
But having nothing but your monitor and a few pixels to identify a target is rather annoying. Or is it because I´m not used to it?

I just read a book called "The most dangerous enemy" and it says that an average pilot during the battle of Britain could (in good weather conditions) see a 109 from 5 miles, and identify it as bandit at 3 miles. I can tell you that with my monitor, I can see the plane at 5 miles, but I can´t identify it until it is at 1 mile...

TC_Stele
08-09-2004, 04:47 AM
I've got the TRACKIR3 device as well and with first using it I found it to be a little confusing and also got dizzy. What helped me identify the planes was checking to see what planes the other side was flying by pressing S, often, and zooming in to (delete) to get a better idea what it was I was looking at. Right off the bat I would know what side the plane was from by its figure. I'm using a 17 inch too but I learned to adapt with it. Also, the way the plane reacts or where its coming from gives it away. Dogfight servers would be difficult because everyone keeps respawning as whatever they want. In a mission, however, you'd have better knowledge before hand and I find it easier to identify that way. So I guess it's just a matter of the situation.

cueceleches
08-09-2004, 04:52 AM
Right, at the moment I find much more easier to play offline in FR than online. At least, when playing a campaign mission, I have a briefing, a planned route, some info about enemy positions on the ground, etc. So I know approximatively where I may be bounced by bandits.
Online, it is impossible to know, if we don´t have at least basic cues, so it is usual to take off and being shot down inmediately (as it has occured to me quite a bunch of times yesterday). I still find offline missiones much more realistic, and probably more injoyable. I guess I´ll fly online only for practicing in more chaotic environments.

609IAP_Recon
08-09-2004, 05:38 AM
good purchase.

even real pilots had to learn to 'see' and identify.

Welcome to the best sim around - work on those skills of seeing and you'll soon get some nice bounces http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Start by scanning certain areas of the sky - not just quickly looking all around. ie. scan a front quarter - then check six, scan right front quarter, check six. Roll slightly right - look down, check six...

If unsure of enemy on bounce, I will come in real close - zoom in, etc... keep speed fast - if friendly, go back up, otherwise, let em rip and go into high yo-yo. Mentally try to keep track of who that was so you don't dive in again (if friendly).


Be sure to climb, you will see better at 5km or so

real or not real - full real has tons of immersion and always is a great challenge - and when you get that kill it is all that much better http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!
609IAP_Recon
http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg


Full Real Virtual Online War: Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com)

SeaFireLIV
08-09-2004, 05:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cueceleches:


My question is, is it a matter of getting used to TIR use, (which at times is a little bit disorienting)?

Thanks a lot!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TIR has VERY little to do with actually enabling you to identify enemy planes better. It`s a common mistake to think that because you have TIR you will now be a better pilot at spotting.

True, once you become used to TIR it will give you a better situational awareness, but a guy using padlock will still blow you away on FR if he`s more experienced and practised than you.

Forget the TIR aspect.

But you are right, GET CLOSE. Don`t shoot till you KNOW it`s an enemy, even if it means you may be shot down yourself.

Extra tips. You`ll learn this with, yes, practise:
I dunno what plane you fly, but I fly allied mostly, so with this in mind...

1. Long range observation. If you see multiple dots in distance, always aim for the HIGHEST dot first. Likely to be Luftwaffe.

2. If you see fire, look for colour of tracer. Early war years tend to have blue/ yellow, later I think is Red/blue for enemy. Once you identified who`s firing that keep eyes on that bogey, you`ll know you can shoot early without needing to identify.

3. If enemy dives at a dot, shoots, then flies up high: it`s a likely LW bogey.

4. When close, if not yet engaged but high. Just stay over, circling, like a vulture, until you see a telltale sign of an enemy eg, tracer colour, wing shape.

5. LW planes tend to be squarer with `boxes` under wing, but watch for the CW spit as a version has the `box` too. Spits generally are curved wing aren`t they? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

6. And FLY offline with no ICONS! It`s amazing how people ask for help and want quick fixes, but there are none. Fly offline preferably in Campaign (as that way you will have to LOOK for the enemy).

You don`t need TIR for any of these, Mouse (or even Padlock will work, though try to stay off padlock).

I hope my waffle helps.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/bluespit.jpg

T_O_A_D
08-09-2004, 07:28 AM
I prefure custom Icon settings myself.
But when I play full real (Full Hard) its not real by no means. I play Historical matchups, or Axis vs Allie only. This way you can identify enemy by Plane profile.

In a DF server too many people don't run the correct markings and then fly what ever plane they desire. It just doesn't work with out some sort of icon, for me.

Oh and if you can stay out of servers with padlock you are at a disadvantage for sure in there. They are using the game and there PC to find and track you, not thier eyes.

Some say thats not fair if you have TIR and they don't. TIR is nothing more than putting your mouse control on your head. You are still using your eyes and body to work the view controls, unlike padlock.

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
Commanding Officer of the 131st_VFW (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

cueceleches
08-09-2004, 08:36 AM
Thx guys. Yes, in fact TIR adds to "feeling" the game with more intensity, better than playing around with my Cougar microstick to pan views. In my case, it helps a lot keeping my SA high. But it´s true, it doesn´t make me a better pilot.
Anyway, offline, I do play without icons, as I don´t really feel the need to have them on. As I said before, it´s as if offline, things were less chaotic than online. I have a better idea of the global situation: where I´m flying to, who am I supposed to encounter and roughly where, and where friendly and enemy territory are situated. I mean that if I fly towards my objective and I see some dots in the distance, I know those are bandits 90% of the time (yes, they might be friendly bombers returning from a mission, but this is rather rare).
Things get more fuzzy once engaged in a dogfight. Only then I have to pay much more attnetion to who I shoot, but, I can´t really tell why, I still find it less difficult than online.Maybe the pressure of knowing that online I´m fighting against REAL people??

Flygflottilj16_Sulan
08-09-2004, 09:12 AM
Identifying is hard! I just got a trackIR3 standard, and I find it an advantage in keeping situational awareness and ID:ing boogies.
I can put my eyes on a boogie and zoom in on it without having to go to closest snapview and then correct with mouse...

But indeed ID:ing is hard, especcially for BnZ tactics... Other things that can ID a plane is: When they open fire you can see on the tracers, flak shooting at them...
But since you can much more easily "padlock-look" with trackIR (without padlock on :P) keeping an overall look of the situation is easier... This also helps in not having to ID the same plane more than once, it takes practice with fullreal. Teamplay I find crucial to being successful in full real

STENKA_69.GIAP
08-09-2004, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Decent-:
Identifying is hard! Teamplay I find crucial to being successful in full real<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn't agree more.

Firstly, in real-real there were frequent friendly shooting incidents and kills - you have to check out closely before you shoot.

Work on recognising the silouettes. When you join a FR server check out the red and blue bases and see what planes are flying. If it is a good server they will not have the same planes on both sides - if it does - go elsewhere. This way you know what to expect - also when flying press the S key occasionaly and look at what the other pilots are flying - for example if the only twin engines in the air are
110s and 111s shoot anything that has two motors.

OK - two single engine fighter monoplanes in a head on don't give a clearly identifiable silouette so you do not fire on the first pass (unless he does then give him everything).

Next get voicecomms and fly with colleagues (a headset is $10 and software is free). Two or three pilots in formation see far more of the sky and your colleages will probably be better at identification than you in the beginning or they get a better view. If you see a pair of planes engaged - you ask your colleague if they are chasing/evading/shooting with that info you know who is who.

Finaly look at the way the contact is flying - for example a fighter running low trailing smoke towards the blue base is what? And someone dropping like a stone onto your back from 3k metres is that another IL2?

If you want to practice any of this stuff drop by at the 69GIAP Dog server most Thursday Nights 21:00 European time - we open our teamspeak server to visitors.

Oh - it's not all serious... we love to do a furball and to wake up a squad member by deliberately shooting his tail off - but deliberately...

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_stenka.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

cueceleches
08-09-2004, 09:58 AM
Thanks for the offer Stenka, I would love to practice with some friendly people (and FR veterans). What kind of software do you use for voice comms? RW?

TacticalYak3
08-09-2004, 10:12 AM
Been playing the game for the last couple of weeks with TIR3Pro. Previously only used the joystick's hatswitch.

Immersion is what I am seeking, and TIR helps a lot in this regard. It is great during an extended flight in a campaign mission to easily read guages and scope out the topography below hands free.

In dogfights, being able to better track other planes while piloting (hatswitch was fast but couldn't track bandit in odd flight lines as well). Plus your own head movement and speed helps you gauge the E advantage and direction.

Sorry to hear someone is having trouble with the unit. Mine seems to work just fine, even during long gaming sessions.

------------------------------

With regards to icons, I wanted to finally learn to fly without them too recently, especially given VWF and more and more servers with customized/no icons.

As stated TIR doesn't make you see better, but it does allow you to track a plane in gunsight to help ID planes. It does take practice to have the confidence to fly without icons.

I found playing a short offline campaign very helpful (and "safe") way to learn. Keep in mind, however, it is often very easy to tell where the bandits are in a campaign mission, unlike a DF server where planes are flying everywhere and in no formation.

___________________________________________

"My Luftwaffe is invincible . . . And so now we turn to England. How long will this one last - two, three weeks?" (Hermann Goring, June 1940)

:FI:TacticalS!

Heavy_Weather
08-09-2004, 11:16 AM
well it is a computer game and we're limited, sadly enough i use the zoom feature to ID aircraft sometimes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

"To fly a combat mission is not a trip under the moon. Every attack, every bombing is a dance with death."
- Serafima Amsova-Taranenko: Noggle, Ann (1994): A Dance with Death.

NippleCorn
08-09-2004, 01:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cueceleches:
Thanks for the offer Stenka, I would love to practice with some friendly people (and FR veterans). What kind of software do you use for voice comms? RW?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sounds as if they use TeamSpeak. http://www.teamspeak.org/

STENKA_69.GIAP
08-10-2004, 04:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cueceleches:
Thanks for the offer Stenka, I would love to practice with some friendly people (and FR veterans). What kind of software do you use for voice comms? RW?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We use teamspeak.
do a google search for teamspeak and download + install the Windows Client version.

mail me on ptthome@club-internet.fr and I will send you instructions screenshot of how to set it up login etc. - it's not complicated

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_stenka.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

Dimensionaut_
08-10-2004, 05:15 AM
I've heard that TIR will be detected as a cheat in FR servers with the next update... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif


At the First Aid section of http://www.1java.org you can also find a tutorial on how to setup Team Speak, complete with screenshots.

<A HREF="http://www.1java.org/sh" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.uploadit.org/1javaserval/images.php
</A>

cueceleches
08-10-2004, 05:26 AM
TIR as a cheat? Why so? Is it considered a cheat when used online?
Thanks for the info on Teamspeak guys!

Dimensionaut_
08-10-2004, 05:31 AM
Why not? Padlock also isn't allowed to look around... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

<A HREF="http://www.1java.org/sh" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.uploadit.org/1javaserval/images.php
</A>

cueceleches
08-10-2004, 05:37 AM
Ok, so in this case, it is not FR, it is just Impossible...I guess I´ll finally stick to offline campaigns.

STENKA_69.GIAP
08-10-2004, 05:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Serval_1JaVA:
I've heard that TIR will be detected as a cheat in FR servers with the next update... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Naah - Ivan said it was joysticks next - TIR was about seventh on the list which means that they will get around to that ready for BOB

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_stenka.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

Dimensionaut_
08-10-2004, 06:01 AM
Note the mocking devil smilies http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I think it would be a very bad move to make that option.
Many people use the TIR and love it.

<A HREF="http://www.1java.org/sh" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.uploadit.org/1javaserval/images.php
</A>

Freefalldart
08-10-2004, 08:24 AM
Welcome to WW2, no IFF here.
I have a very effective method to identify enemy fighters. Usually they are the ones that are right behind me... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

I have a question to TIR owners. Do you think that it make sense buying it if I am playing mostly offline?. And another one, is the previous sentence well constructed? (damn english) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

"Cuando un loco parece totalmente sensato es hora de ponerle la camisa de fuerza"
Edgar Allan Poe (1809-1849)

SeaFireLIV
08-10-2004, 09:20 AM
TIR is great both online and offline for a more `realistic` feel of being `there`. It`s the closest you`ll get to actually looking around like in a real aircraft using a 2D monitor display.

TIR= Immersion in the sim world. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif In other words, YES , get it for Offline too!

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/SigHarry.jpg

Harris was overjoyed when the Controller gave him bombs at last!

GT182
08-10-2004, 09:29 AM
YES YES and YES for offline use. It's the only way to fly, just like "Real Life Views". You wouldn't use a hatswitch flying in a real airplane would you? So why not use a TIR flying on and offline? It's just good common sense. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"GT182" / "Stab/JG51_vonSpinmeister"
www.bombs-away.net/forums (http://www.bombs-away.net/forums)
"Fly to Survive, Survive to Fly"

eXtra_Corrosiv
08-10-2004, 03:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T_O_A_D:
I prefure custom Icon settings myself.
But when I play full real (Full Hard) its not real by no means. I play Historical matchups, or Axis vs Allie only. This way you can identify enemy by Plane profile.

In a DF server too many people don't run the correct markings and then fly what ever plane they desire. It just doesn't work with out some sort of icon, for me.

Oh and if you can stay out of servers with padlock you are at a disadvantage for sure in there. They are using the game and there PC to find and track you, not thier eyes.

Some say thats not fair if you have TIR and they don't. TIR is nothing more than putting your mouse control on your head. You are still using your eyes and body to work the view controls, unlike padlock.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1
http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


the main problem with padlock is that there is only on or off. there should be a setting for only padlocking enemies under your gunsight. This is the ONLY thing I use padlock for.

If chodes need eze radar they should go play lomac.

--------------------------------------------
Bf109 g-6 through g-10. Mk108 Nose Cannon, 2x Mg131.
one finger over control, one finger over E.
=-=-

Freefalldart
08-11-2004, 07:47 AM
Thanks for the advice SeaFireLIV and GT182!
If TIR is that good I'll enjoy it for sure.
Now searching for the best price http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Cuando un loco parece totalmente sensato es hora de ponerle la camisa de fuerza"
Edgar Allan Poe (1809-1849)

TgD Thunderbolt56
08-11-2004, 08:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freefalldart:

If TIR is that good I'll enjoy it for sure.
Now searching for the best price http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, you'll enjoy it online and offline...it's great. For a good price, look here: http://www.magnum-pc.com

TB



Our FB server info: http://www.greatergreen.com/il2

cueceleches
08-11-2004, 08:41 AM
Well, after some more testing, I´m simply amazed! It´s a whole new different experience for me, who used to play in a more arcadish way...

I´ve started a new campaign with cockpit on, no icons and no padlock, and definetly, TIR gives me a real improvement in my SA. Before, once I lost my targets, I switched for a second to nocockpit view in order to recover my enemy´s sight, but I feel no need for it anymore.

It is great to be able to track the bandit even if it passes fast by your nose, and I almost never loose sight of him. And it feels great to keep my cockpit on all the time. Yes, deflection shoots might be a little more difficult, but well worth it.

I´m delighted by the real improvement TIR has given my simming experience, and at least I finally don´t feel a little bit ashamed of my previous arcadish way of flying!

nearmiss
08-11-2004, 11:52 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif I'm going to re-shuffle the deck now.

I use an Kensington Expert Mouse (trackball)for fast effective viewing. I use it with my left hand and I use a MSFT FF2 stick with my right hand.

I change my IL2-FB mouse sensitivity in the inputs section of IL2-FB to 5.0 or more. This way I just have to barely move the trackball for major movement.

ALso, unlike TIR I can hold my view for whatever I want to see. I don't have to steady my head I just take my hand off the trackball.

I've turned all the views off the POV hat switch. It forces me to familiarize with the trackball. I use button #2 on the MSFT FF2 to pull the view back front gunsight center. If I get lost with my view I can always click the #2 button and regroup.

A big plus about the Kensington Expert Mouse (trackball) I've had it 11 years. When it starts glitching I know the little connection on the PC board is getting loose. I just re-solder the little connector joints and WAHLA it's working again. I paid $100 US for the thing originally and have I gotten my money out of it a hundred times. Mine is a four button version, but you can buy 8 button variations. All the buttons on the Expert mouse are programmable as well.

You track IR fans can rave on, but I think in some cases my lil' solution has better application for some users.

I'm not raggin' on anyones choosing a track IR I'm merely pointing out there are other good alternatives. I've not tried the trackball in combination with newview, but since I've read this thread it might make sense to give it a go.

http://avsims.com/portal/modules/liens/images/banner.gif (http://avsims.com/portal/)

[This message was edited by nearmiss on Wed August 11 2004 at 12:15 PM.]