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VW-IceFire
03-05-2004, 01:35 PM
Sorry to beat a dead horse...but seeing as Gibbage brought up some interesting points about the P-38 and roll rates possibly being different for different computers I thought maybe it'd be good to double check for the other plane that has roll rate complaints by some and not others.

Here's the testing criteria:
- Crimea
- 1000 meters
- 400 kph (as indicated by the numbers in the lower left side of the screen)
- Default armament
- Fuel: 25%
- full 360 degree roll
- count the number of seconds it took
- Please note your joystick settings (or state that you are using default values)

I did the tests myself on 1.22 (no AEP yet) and here's roughly what I got (a rough average - I can be more specific later):

P-47D-10: 3.0 - 3.5 seconds
P-47D-22: 4.0 - 4.5 seconds
P-47D-27: 5.0 - 5.5 seconds

My joystick settings are the default from FB installation. If some of you guys can load up QMB and use a stopwatch and double check your numbers just to be sure.

One thing I noticed....the P-47D-10 and even D-22 have a much quicker initial roll rate than the D-27 which takes much longer to get to peak roll rate. Not sure how we'd measure that...but subjectively the D-22 is much faster in reaching its peak while the D-27 plods along to reach that max rate. Perhaps we shouldn't be concerned about roll rate but aileron responsiveness....which is different on the D-22 and D-10 from the D-27. Oleg: If you could tell us if roll rate and responsiveness are different variables and thus one has been checked and the other not?

If there's a good reason for the D-27 initial roll rate to be at least a full second slower in its affect to roll rate then I'm really not going to complain about it anymore. Its just a nagging thing that I'd love to have an answer too...especially since everything else in the game to me is fantastically done! Either way....the D-27 is still a fantastic ground pounder but it was also a fighter and it just feels terribly sluggish.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

VW-IceFire
03-05-2004, 01:35 PM
Sorry to beat a dead horse...but seeing as Gibbage brought up some interesting points about the P-38 and roll rates possibly being different for different computers I thought maybe it'd be good to double check for the other plane that has roll rate complaints by some and not others.

Here's the testing criteria:
- Crimea
- 1000 meters
- 400 kph (as indicated by the numbers in the lower left side of the screen)
- Default armament
- Fuel: 25%
- full 360 degree roll
- count the number of seconds it took
- Please note your joystick settings (or state that you are using default values)

I did the tests myself on 1.22 (no AEP yet) and here's roughly what I got (a rough average - I can be more specific later):

P-47D-10: 3.0 - 3.5 seconds
P-47D-22: 4.0 - 4.5 seconds
P-47D-27: 5.0 - 5.5 seconds

My joystick settings are the default from FB installation. If some of you guys can load up QMB and use a stopwatch and double check your numbers just to be sure.

One thing I noticed....the P-47D-10 and even D-22 have a much quicker initial roll rate than the D-27 which takes much longer to get to peak roll rate. Not sure how we'd measure that...but subjectively the D-22 is much faster in reaching its peak while the D-27 plods along to reach that max rate. Perhaps we shouldn't be concerned about roll rate but aileron responsiveness....which is different on the D-22 and D-10 from the D-27. Oleg: If you could tell us if roll rate and responsiveness are different variables and thus one has been checked and the other not?

If there's a good reason for the D-27 initial roll rate to be at least a full second slower in its affect to roll rate then I'm really not going to complain about it anymore. Its just a nagging thing that I'd love to have an answer too...especially since everything else in the game to me is fantastically done! Either way....the D-27 is still a fantastic ground pounder but it was also a fighter and it just feels terribly sluggish.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Saburo_0
03-05-2004, 03:47 PM
Bump. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

while waiting til monday for my AEP to arrive. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

VW-IceFire
03-05-2004, 04:39 PM
I've still got 1.22...do a test in that too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

PzKpfw
03-06-2004, 01:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:

P-47D-10: 3.0 - 3.5 seconds
P-47D-22: 4.0 - 4.5 seconds
P-47D-27: 5.0 - 5.5 seconds

My joystick settings are the default from FB installation. If some of you guys can load up QMB and use a stopwatch and double check your numbers just to be sure.

One thing I noticed....the P-47D-10 and even D-22 have a much quicker initial roll rate than the D-27 which takes much longer to get to peak roll rate. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good work Ice. Below is the P-47 rollrate data from AHT on examples:

The P-47C-1 peak Roll rate was 85deg/sec )4.2 sec full roll) @ 250mph IAS with 50Lb stick. The P-47D-30/40 peak roll rate was 60deg/sec (6 sec full roll) @ 220MPH IAS with 50Lb stick.

To bad we can't just get an simple response from Oleg, but he seems to just ingnore P-47 rollrate threads, and rollrate questions in general.



Regards, John Waters

---------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

VW-IceFire
03-06-2004, 02:12 PM
I noticed that. Ok...so 220mph is about 350kph so I'll retest the D-27 (which is certainly darned close to the D-30) at that speed and see what happens. But 6 seconds for a full roll isn't that far off what I'm getting then which means that the roll rate is indeed correct.

What may NOT be correct is the initial roll speed...I'd like some kind of clarification if thats different too. It is interesting that the D-30 is a slower roller than the C-1. Which is interesting and which I think somewhat validates the present situation for the P-47 in FB but not 100% yet. We may be complaining about a roll rate that is fine while its the initial roll ability thats actually whats making the D-27 feel horribly sluggish.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Fillmore
03-06-2004, 02:20 PM
So the P47s actually roll faster than they should? Or are the AH rollrates way too slow from what they should be?

VW-IceFire
03-06-2004, 02:27 PM
Ok...my test repeated:
- 1000 meters
- Crimea
- P-47D-27
- 25% fuel
- Default armament
- 350kph

With these settings the P-47D-27 was giving me:

- 3.7 to 4.4 seconds to do a full 360 degree roll

No rudder used (although the twisting axis of my Precision Pro means that some rudder may have crept in). Again, default FB joystick settings.

The tests were comparing against I don't know what altitude or how much fuel the P-47's had loaded. I think at 100% fuel (which I will test later) the roll speed will be around 6 seconds for a full roll.

So roll rate for the D-27 may indeed be correct and as I stated, the initial roll rate may be too slow (or at least it is slower than the other P-47 models). This is where we really need Oleg to let us know if the initial roll rate is accurate (and has been checked) and why its slower for a D-27 than for the others.

Again, others are welcome to repeat the tests themselves and see what you get. This is certainly starting to invalidate the feeling that the P-47D-27 is too slow of a roller...but the feeling may be caused by something else rather than pure roll rate.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Aaron_GT
03-06-2004, 03:40 PM
"No rudder used (although the twisting axis of my Precision Pro means that some rudder may have crept in). Again, default FB joystick settings."

One option is maybe to unmap it from the
controller menu temporarily, perhaps?

"The tests were comparing against I don't know what altitude or how much fuel the P-47's had loaded. I think at 100% fuel (which I will test later) the roll speed will be around 6 seconds for a full roll."

So that would FB modelling correct (at least
at 220mph)?

VW-IceFire
03-06-2004, 04:23 PM
I did another set of tests with virtually the same results. About 4-5 seconds with 100% fuel (everything else the same). I ensured that there we no twist on the joystick and no deflection of the rudder during the manuver.

FB would be modeling correct the roll rate based on this (that PzKpfw posted and I've seen before):
The P-47C-1 peak Roll rate was 85deg/sec )4.2 sec full roll) @ 250mph IAS with 50Lb stick. The P-47D-30/40 peak roll rate was 60deg/sec (6 sec full roll) @ 220MPH IAS with 50Lb stick.

So 220mph is apparently something close to 350kph so 4-5 seconds is pretty goood considering the D-30 has a 6 second roll rate. It still feels a bit sluggish but its still relatively fast.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

ACE.HOLE
03-06-2004, 04:45 PM
I agree the roll of the p4727 is slightly under par. People who fly this plane notice it alot vs other aircraft that are performing slightly over thier 360d time.

I enjoyed this game alot more when we did not have the snap rolls. Snap rolls are realistic but online the plane movement just does not look right on my pc anyways. It looks like the fockewulf190 ki84 yak fighters are spazing out flopping around. One other thing I noticed is aircraft have no bleed in an air switch.

To get accurate roll rate times remap the elevator and ailerons to the arrow keys just for the tests, many will find they are loosing alot with thier joystick calibration.

Play for fun do not let these little things bother you or you will have a miserable time playing

http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/v97/acespace/me1.jpg

[This message was edited by ACE.HOLE on Sat March 06 2004 at 03:57 PM.]

VW-IceFire
03-07-2004, 07:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ACE.HOLE:
I agree the roll of the p4727 is slightly under par. People who fly this plane notice it alot vs other aircraft that are performing slightly over thier 360d time.

I enjoyed this game alot more when we did not have the snap rolls. Snap rolls are realistic but online the plane movement just does not look right on my pc anyways. It looks like the fockewulf190 ki84 yak fighters are spazing out flopping around. One other thing I noticed is aircraft have no bleed in an air switch.

To get accurate roll rate times remap the elevator and ailerons to the arrow keys just for the tests, many will find they are loosing alot with thier joystick calibration.

Play for fun do not let these little things bother you or you will have a miserable time playing

http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/v97/acespace/me1.jpg

[This message was edited by ACE.HOLE on Sat March 06 2004 at 03:57 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually...if you read what I've posted and what were comparing the results I've gotten to you'll actually see that the roll rate is just fine. The roll sensitivity or initial roll rate may be off but not the roll rate which seems accurate. And please...anyone...feel free to replicate my test. Thats the whole point.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Aaron_GT
03-07-2004, 09:22 AM
According to SkyChimp it might be fine for
220mph where 30lb and 50lb stick force both
give maximal aileron deflection, but not
necessarily correct for higher speeds. Do
we have any figures for the D-30 for higher
speeds?

VW-IceFire
03-07-2004, 12:13 PM
Mmmm good point...at 220mph it certainly seems good. Other places its definately slower...how much slower than it should be (or if it indeed is slower at all) is another question.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

RAF74_Buzzsaw
03-07-2004, 12:20 PM
Salute All

Remember one thing when testing the P-47:

Do not apply rudder to initiate the turn. This was clearly specified in the NACA tests for this aircraft. All rollrate results were obtained without the use of rudder to initiate. Rudder can be used to maintain the direction of travel once the roll has been initiated.

PzKpfw
03-07-2004, 01:27 PM
From past posts here is more data from From Ed Wagamon off the P-47 Advocates board. Data is taken from AHTs roll charts:

@ 250 mph IAS: P-47C&D @ 50 lbs force = 85 deg/sec. @ 30 lbs stick force= 55 deg/sec.

@ 300 mph IAS: P-47C&D @ 50 lbs stick force = 80 deg/sec. @ 30 lbs stick force = 42 deg/sec

@ 350 mph IAS: P-47C&D @ 50 lbs stick force = 75 deg/sec. @ 30 lbs stick force= 35 deg/sec.

@ 400 mph IAS: P-47C&D @ 50 lbs stick force = 65 deg/sec. @ 30 lbs stick force= 25 deg/sec.

Regards, John Waters

---------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

[This message was edited by PzKpfw on Sun March 07 2004 at 12:41 PM.]

SkyChimp
03-07-2004, 03:49 PM
Oleg modelled the D-27 to roll in a manner consistent with a 30 lb stick force (in fact, at most speeds it's not even that good).

He modeled the D-10 and D-22 to roll in a manner consistent with a 50 lb stick force.

This is completely inconsistent, and there is no reason for it.

Look at the chart below. The D-27 is rolling ROUGHLY about the same as the botton black line. It should roll along the red line with full stick movement.

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/50lbs.jpg

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

VW-IceFire
03-07-2004, 09:02 PM
So where we see the divergence is not at the speeds I tested but above them? I understand now.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Aaron_GT
03-08-2004, 10:14 AM
Skychimp wrote:
"Oleg modelled the D-27 to roll in a manner consistent with a 30 lb stick force (in fact, at most speeds it's not even that good). "

Er.. not true. When I did my testing with
FB 1.0 (no rudder) at 400mph the roll was
completed in 10 seconds.

From FB 1.0:
speeds (mph) - time in FB - time (AHT, 30lbs)
250 - 4 - 6.5
300 - 5 - 8.6
340 - 8 - 10.3
400 - 10 - 14.4

So in 1.0 the P-47 actually rolled faster
than for 30lb stick force, and the D-27 model
is still pretty much consistent with 1.0

What we really need are a full set of figures
for the D-30. We can compare the oft quoted
chart for the C-1, though, and compare with
the D-30 at 220mph.

VW-IceFire
03-08-2004, 05:55 PM
Ok latest tests:

- 1000 meters
- Crimea
- 500 kph
- 100% fuel (seems not to matter much for straight roll rate)

P-47D-10 = 3.5-4.5 second roll rate
P-47D-22 = 5.0-5.5
P-47D-27 = 7.5-8.0 seconds

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

SkyChimp
03-08-2004, 07:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
Skychimp wrote:
"Oleg modelled the D-27 to roll in a manner consistent with a 30 lb stick force (in fact, at most speeds it's not even that good). "

Er.. not true. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it's not exactly the same, but its close enough to see that's apparently what he attempted to do.

At low speed the D-27 rolls a little better than in that chart. But at high speeds its even worse than the 30lb chart says it should be.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

Aaron_GT
03-09-2004, 01:32 AM
"No, it's not exactly the same, but its close enough to see that's apparently what he attempted to do"

That's a bit different than saying it rolls
worse than the 30lb chart.

Aaron_GT
03-09-2004, 01:36 AM
"Oleg modelled the D-27 to roll in a manner consistent with a 30 lb stick force (in fact, at most speeds it's not even that good)."

When

"Oleg modelled the D-27 to roll in a manner consistent with a 30 lb stick force (but in fact, at most speeds it's a little better than this)."

Would have been more accurate.

If you keep things accurate then it might
be easier to persuade Oleg to modify things.
If you say "It isn't even that good" when
it is in fact slightly better than that it
is likely to just piss Oleg off.

PzKpfw
03-09-2004, 08:47 AM
Oleg has to date, never commented on the D-27 roll rate, nor does it seem their is any prospect he ever will, comment; one way or the other.

IMHO the D-27 RR is & has been, a dead issue, as Oleg has never had any apperent intrest whatsoever, in responding to P-47 roll rate topics.


Regards, John Waters

---------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

[This message was edited by PzKpfw on Tue March 09 2004 at 08:02 AM.]

VW-IceFire
03-09-2004, 01:14 PM
Which is a little crazy since it seems like a simple issue. Plenty of data, nothing to contradict it, and no reason not to change it except for possible time constraints and even then at least we'd know.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

AaronGT
03-09-2004, 02:19 PM
To be brutally honest we have yet
to produce definitive figures for
high speed roll rates for the D27.

We have a set of rates for the
C1RE for 50lb stick force.

We have a 50lb stick force rate
for the D30, but only at low
speed. (We can at least compare
this with the C1RE, although I
no longer know where my copy is,
if someone has it please post it
again!)

We have a 30lb stick force curve
and some projections.

We have figures from AHT which
do not distinguish between C
and D models, but are for two
stick forces.

We've had some inflammatory
statements.

While what we have probably
suggests that the D27 roll rate at
high speed should be better we
still lack the killer evidence -
primary data for 50lb stick force
for a late D block model apart
from at 220mph. We probably
don't yet have the cruical evidence
to make the case.

What we can possibly do is
marshall the information better.
I believe Skychimp has late D block
curves at 30lbs (I believe that is
what you posted?). If we lack
50lb stick force roll curves for the
D27 then we might make an
argument for better D27 roll rates
if we show that the 30lb curves
for the D27 and C1 are the same
if we can find 30lb curves for the
C1RE.

SkyChimp
03-09-2004, 06:25 PM
We can parse words all night. But whatever we decided to call it, the damned thing rolls too slowly. And it roll as lot more closely to the 30lb chart than the 50lb chart. And my tests show that at most playing speeds, it's worse than the 30lb chart.

There is no difference between aileron travel or stick travel between the D-22 and D-27. That's clear. So mechanical advantage in the D-22 is no different that in the D-27.

So, it come down to one of two things: either the little man in the D-27 is failing to throw the stick far enough to one side or the other, or he is weaker than the little men in the other two Thunderbolts. Either way, it needs to be fixed.

If Oleg wants to dispell any perception he is prejudiced against American planes, he'd do well to fix this glaring error. But I agree, Oleg won't fix it, and he won't even acknowledge it.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

VW-IceFire
03-09-2004, 06:35 PM
Would it be rude to e-mail the beta address about this. I'm convinced its a bug and thats what the e-mail service is about. I know its not meant as an outlet for "this plane is undermodeled or this plane is overmodeled" but might it be prudent? Has it been done? Its most certainly a bug or an oversight like the revi reticle ring size.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Aaron_GT
03-10-2004, 03:22 AM
"We can parse words all night. But whatever we decided to call it, the damned thing rolls too slowly. "

It probably rolls too slowly. We don't have
a definitive graph for 50lb stick force, so
we don't have the critical evidence required.
Now if we can show that some data points
correspond between the D-27 and other, earlier,
versions, then we might have a better argument
that the D-27 should be sufficiently similar
that the roll rate should be the same as the
D-10 or D-22. Until this is done there is
still the possibility that the D-27 really
did roll more slowly.

Oleg seems to require a fair bit of evidence
for the LW planes along these same sort of
lines, so I don't think it is unfair for the
P47 to be held to the same standards of proof.

Now personally I suspect you are correct in
assessing the roll rate, Skychimp, but I am
playing Devil's Advocate to a certain extent.
I think the preponderance of evidence points
to the D-27 having a higher roll rate than
exhibited in the game, but it has not been
demonstrated beyond all reasonable doubt. Oleg
probably requires that proof beyond reasonable
doubt.

Heart_C
03-10-2004, 05:22 AM
Actually, I just found out that Oleg responded to it. In the "Bug Report" Thread, on page 5:

"3. Forget it. We have it BETTER than in so-loved and really _buggy_ book American Hundred Thousand.
There are curves for P-47 (really for XP-47!),, P-47C, P-47D-30, and just a point of maximal rate for D-40.

For P-47C there is curve for 50 Lb Stick force. Test with our on these speeds please!.
For D-30 ( that is equal to modelled in our sim
for roll rate) - make by a pencil the line of curve of 30 Lb for stick to 50 Lb and you will get very close... It will be visible that it is lower than for P-47C. The main reason - pilons. Nown when I explain test yourself. You will see that on critical speed we have it a bit better than should.... Just becaseu we ae tired of P-47 fans that think that they know everything.... Not all of cource, but many of them."

...

Aaron_GT
03-10-2004, 07:33 AM
Well, seems like the rates we have for the
D-27 are to stay then. They are a bit better
(up to 50% better) than the 30lb rates for
the P47C, at least.

Do the D-10 or 22 have pylons (I can't remember
off hand).

PzKpfw
03-10-2004, 02:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heart_C:
Actually, I just found out that Oleg responded to it. In the "Bug Report" Thread, on page 5:

"3. Forget it. We have it BETTER than in so-loved and really _buggy_ book American Hundred Thousand.

There are curves for P-47 (really for XP-47!),, P-47C, P-47D-30, and just a point of maximal rate for D-40.

For P-47C there is curve for 50 Lb Stick force. Test with our on these speeds please!.
For D-30 ( that is equal to modelled in our sim
for roll rate) - make by a pencil the line of curve of 30 Lb for stick to 50 Lb and you will get very close... It will be visible that it is lower than for P-47C. The main reason - pilons. Nown when I explain test yourself. You will see that on critical speed we have it a bit better than should.... Just becaseu we ae tired of P-47 fans that think that they know everything.... Not all of cource, but many of them."

...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Finaly a reponse from Oleg &lt;Claps&gt;.

See I can live with that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Only part i disagree with is, his bashing Dean's work. Or these 'know it all's', perhaphs replying months ago would have alieviated the abandoned feeling ppl got who posted these topics?.

Oleg do you own that 'American' book; America's Hundred Thousand?. It's Interesting that NACA, USAF, and Republic roll rate charts ued in AHT are all incorrect, as well especialy with Dean being an Engineer etc.

Anyway just good to get a response after all this time.


Regards, John Waters

---------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.