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RedDeth
06-03-2004, 12:42 PM
this is not a troll thread. i fly 7 days a week.

ive noticed tons of data being put up on these boards about various jap planes. the k100 etc etc

ive seen about five different japanese planes that if using data in these forums will be more than equal to anything we flew in the pacific.

im getting a sneaking suspicion in 45 our planes in game will end up with no advantage at all at any altitude. late year DF servers all the best planes will be japanese

i think we need to have 2 planes in game in 45 to counteract this. the P-47N and the P-51H. and the F8F as a back up just in case.

think about all those late year jap planes built to optimal speck. just like some russian and german planes.

War in the Pacific in japans favor . you heard it here first. lets get some optimal usa planes too.

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RedDeth
06-03-2004, 12:42 PM
this is not a troll thread. i fly 7 days a week.

ive noticed tons of data being put up on these boards about various jap planes. the k100 etc etc

ive seen about five different japanese planes that if using data in these forums will be more than equal to anything we flew in the pacific.

im getting a sneaking suspicion in 45 our planes in game will end up with no advantage at all at any altitude. late year DF servers all the best planes will be japanese

i think we need to have 2 planes in game in 45 to counteract this. the P-47N and the P-51H. and the F8F as a back up just in case.

think about all those late year jap planes built to optimal speck. just like some russian and german planes.

War in the Pacific in japans favor . you heard it here first. lets get some optimal usa planes too.

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MEGILE
06-03-2004, 12:56 PM
For me, If it flew in the alotted time period, then it should be added.. if it didn't then it shouldn't be in the game, regardless of "fairness".. sorry bro your just gonna have to deal with it hehe http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

BlitzPig_DDT
06-03-2004, 12:59 PM
Sounds like you are hoping for what he is worrying about there Megile.

In either case, the 47N (and M), 51H, and F8F all flew "in the alotted time".

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MEGILE
06-03-2004, 01:01 PM
If it flew in the time period and is an acceptable candidate then by all means include it. But don't try and "even" up the sides just to make it fair.
And fyi I fly Mustangs and Lightnings http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. Yes KI-84s are hard enemies to down, but I wouldn't have it anyother way, I mean, what'd be the point in fighting an enemy it takes no skill to down.
Thats why I laugh when I see some Luftwhiners cry about Russian planes. Secretly they love them being "uber" because they get a hard on every time they down one.

VW-IceFire
06-03-2004, 01:19 PM
Keep in mind that although the Ki-84 and the N1K2 George were great fighters they were available in limited quantities.

P-47N's were still shooting down Oscars and other earlier types more than Ki-84's.

Dogfight servers are another matter...but it was common for the latest service models of USAAF and USN fighters to be fighting older models of Japanese fighters.

I'm not at all worried about the American planes either...I'm concerned that nobody will fly for the Japanese side. The Hellcat is a very strong contender for all around awesome fighter and the P-51 is already an excellent fighter in game that people are skilled at or becoming accustomed to.

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Tater-SW-
06-03-2004, 01:33 PM
It's something we'll have to deal with in the sim community until field condiditions are modeled. Ideally, gas quality, and even individual variation of planes would be randomized and built into the FMB so we could try different scenarios for patched together forces flying day after day.

tater

faustnik
06-03-2004, 01:36 PM
I can't agree RedDeth. The late war Corsairs will probably be dominant as well as the P-47Ns and P-51s. The F4U-4 had 2,400hp at sea level!

The Ki-84s and Ki-100 are great but, won't be uber with the horsepower the Americans have in the air.

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Giganoni
06-03-2004, 02:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
It's something we'll have to deal with in the sim community until field condiditions are modeled. Ideally, gas quality, and even individual variation of planes would be randomized and built into the FMB so we could try different scenarios for patched together forces flying day after day.

tater<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, in PF when I fly a Ki-84 and start a DF with some P-38Ls or P-51Ds I won't have to worry about my engine suddenly seizing up. If we get to fly the George I won't have to worry about half my buddies having to head back to base due to mechanical problems. Maybe the campaign in the late war will show Japanese planes being outnumbered by Allied aircraft, maybe.

Just because the sim does not model these things we should dumb down the late model Japanese planes? I don't think so.

Also RedDeth with the PF campaign being easier to affect (like Japan winning Midway or Pearl Harbor being thwarted) the war in the pacific can be in Japan's favor.

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reisen52
06-03-2004, 02:54 PM
How about including the P-80 as it was in the Philippians in squadron strength in July 1945.

In the summer of 1945, approximately 30 P-80As were sent aboard an aircraft carrier to the Philippines in preparation for the final assault on Japan.

The planes were to be issued to the 414th Fighter Group, based at Florida Blanca.

Unfortunately, the planes had been sent without their tip tanks and their aircraft batteries, so they sat aboard the aircraft carrier for 30 days waiting for this equipment.

Reisen

Copperhead310th
06-03-2004, 08:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by reisen52:
How about including the P-80 as it was in the Philippians in squadron strength in July 1945.

In the summer of 1945, approximately 30 P-80As were sent aboard an aircraft carrier to the Philippines in preparation for the final assault on Japan.

The planes were to be issued to the 414th Fighter Group, based at Florida Blanca.

Unfortunately, the planes had been sent without their tip tanks and their aircraft batteries, so they sat aboard the aircraft carrier for 30 days waiting for this equipment.

Reisen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
hmmmm he's got a point there. can you provide documentaion?

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ElAurens
06-03-2004, 10:36 PM
I've said this before. And I hope no one takes it personally, as it is not meant to be personal. I get the very palpable feeling that many of you want to fly US in PF because you think it will be a total rout for the US.

Really, this place is awash in the saliva of all of you drooling at the prospect of swating Japanese planes like so many pesky gnats.

I do worry about this, because the first time one of you gets owned by a Ki whatever, you will run screaming like little girls to Oleg about the "UBER" "overmodeled" Jap planes.

That's just the vibe I'm getting here.

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reisen52
06-03-2004, 11:39 PM
Copperhead310th,

Stan Wood flew them in the Philippians he makes a few comments here

http://home.tiscali.dk/winthrop/stanwood.html

The American Fighter, Enzo Anguluci and Peter Bowers, Orion Books, 1987.

United States Military Aircraft since 1909, Gordon Swanborough and Peter M. Bowers, Smithsonian Institution Press, 1989.

Fighters of the United States Air Force, Robert F. Dorr and David Donald, Temple Press Aerospace, 1990.

American Combat Planes, Ray Wagner, Third Enlarged Edition, Doubleday, 1982.

Lockheed Aircraft since 1913, Rene J. Francillon, Naval Institute Press, 1987.

Lockheed F-80--A Star is Born, Robert F. Dorr, Air International, Volume 47 No. 2, p. 94, 1994.

Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star Variant Briefing, Robert F. Dorr, Wings of Fame, Volume 11, 1998.

ElAurens,

&gt;&gt;&gt;I get the very palpable feeling that many of you want to fly US in PF because you think it will be a total rout for the US.&lt;&lt;&lt;

On any given day......http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

One of the problems will be even the Wildcat vs Zero in one on one will be tuff on the Zero if with 20/20 hindsight the F4F is flown as it was after the earky war tactics were changed.

Only fight in a zoom & boom, don't get slow, don't engage in a turning fight. If you get a Zero on your 6 dive to gain speed then roll & change direction & get out of Dodge.

Reisen

[This message was edited by reisen52 on Thu June 03 2004 at 10:53 PM.]

Tater-SW-
06-04-2004, 12:10 AM
reisen has the right idea, I think. The US planes weren't as badly outmatched early on as histories tend to paint things. The tactics used were, but not the hardware.

Heck, read something like Doomed at the Start and the accounts from the Philipines have the P-40Es flying with guns still packed with cosmoline. From the engagements in there, it sounds like they were lucky to have 1 gun shooting (poorly cleaned out when installed, they tended to jam). On top of that, there was a feeling that the electrical chargers were not reliable, so they disconnected them and charged the guns on the ground. Any jam was stuck until they landed, no way to clear the guns in flight. Like the gas quality for the IJN/AF, we won't have to deal with this.

The early air war will be harder for the IJN/AF than it was in RL (though it was only easy for the first few months), and the late war will be harder for the Allies than it was in RL.

I made a mission with a gagle of 9 zekes 2000ft below a group of 4 P-40Es. The P-40s are all set to average, the zekes are a mixture of all the AI skill levels. They don;t get bounced, they turn into the attackers instantly. My AI wingmen are pretty clueless, lucky to damage any let alone down one, and frequently get downed themselves. I consistantly get 6-9 of the zekes as long as I exclusively BnZ. Turn with them and die, seems realistic in that regard. I changed the allied flight to F2Bs, same thing. If I make them Spit Vs, the AI wingmen actually get a couple kills. P-38s and I can kill all of them and it's starting not to seem sporting. The hardest so far was hurris with MGs---not fast enough. FWIW, this wouldn;t surprise me in a game like WB vs real people as well, I'd think nothing of diving into a swarm of zeros in a f4f as long as I had loads of smash, and a clear exit window (friendly planes or base that I know I can get to if I get in trouble).

tater

RedDeth
06-04-2004, 02:02 AM
rgr faustnik i know about the F4U4. i put that plane in the same category as the P47N . very uber and i doubt we will get it.

on an aside to someone elses post. im not worried about just bashing jap planes or worried about a fair fight. but most of those statistics on the best jap planes are Optimistic at best.

i just dont want to see japanese fighters flying up to 11,000 meters and dogfighting with american planes. they werent that capable though stats seem to imply otherwise.

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CHDT
06-04-2004, 02:41 AM
"The F4U-4 had 2,400hp at sea level!"


Like the Focke Wulf 190 A-9 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But does this mean something? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

CHDT
06-04-2004, 02:44 AM
If the energy is correctly modeled, the US late planes should have no problem, as they were all faster than their Japanese counterparts and better at altitudes.

And to be historically correct, the Japanese late war airplanes FM's should also include the fact of the very poor quality of petrol in Japan at the end of the war.

LEXX_Luthor
06-04-2004, 03:35 AM
A dynamic campaign where Japanese win the WAR would require USA planes to suffer poor workmanship and bad fuel--and engage in kamikazi attack. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Actually, the "bad" airplane FM Mods should be selectable in FMB where mission builders can choose.

Anyway, USA can use advantages of late WAR numbers like LW used numbers to defeat Poland. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ElAurens
06-04-2004, 05:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
Optimistic at best.

i just dont want to see japanese fighters flying up to 11,000 meters <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do we have to start this again?

Above about 7500 meters the atmospheric modeling DOES NOT CHANGE with this game engine. This is always pointed out in posts about the Me. 163 Komet achieving Mach 3 in the game. But when its a Japanese plane it is somehow different?

I'l make a special effort to come up and say hello in my Ki 84 sometime...

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LEXX_Luthor
06-04-2004, 05:35 AM
Maybe for FM, but the higher you get above 10km, the more you need to lean mixture. So something is modded way up there.

WOLFMondo
06-04-2004, 06:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I'm not at all worried about the American planes either...I'm concerned that nobody will fly for the Japanese side. The Hellcat is a very strong contender for all around awesome fighter and the P-51 is already an excellent fighter in game that people are skilled at or becoming accustomed to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bah! Im concerned about the British planes more than either the US or Japanese. Althought its nice to have a varied selection to shoot downhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If its a WW2 sim I only want WW2 planes and planes that saw combat. Not planes that appeared in September 1945 etc.

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VW-IceFire
06-04-2004, 06:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I'm not at all worried about the American planes either...I'm concerned that nobody will fly for the Japanese side. The Hellcat is a very strong contender for all around awesome fighter and the P-51 is already an excellent fighter in game that people are skilled at or becoming accustomed to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bah! Im concerned about the British planes more than either the US or Japanese. Althought its nice to have a varied selection to shoot downhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If its a WW2 sim I only want WW2 planes and planes that saw combat. Not planes that appeared in September 1945 etc.

http://bill.nickdafish.com/sig/mondo.jpg
http://www.wolfgaming.net<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well as long as they provide us with a flyable SEAC/RAAF Spitfire Mark VIII...us commonwealth types will be right at home and with a plane that is more than capable of besting the contemporary Japanese fighters. The Seafire Mark III which I think is the one were getting won't be quite as capable but still decent. There is good reason for even having a Spitfire FR XIV which I have pictures of from Squadron Signal with SEAC markings in the PTO. Evidently that mark did fly missions and shoot down at least 10 Japanese fighters during the final weeks of the war.

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Biloxi72
06-04-2004, 07:13 AM
S!
Im going to go along with Megile on this one also, as long as it is in its proper time frame im fine with it. I also just fly the p38 and as El Aurens stated the game does not model altitude above 7.5km so any advantage any plane had at height is nullified. I have taken my p38 J/L in dogfight servers against ki84s and the German models. Do i get owned if they get on my tail, yes. But that is my fault for getting caught in front of them. When i use a modified B&Z against them i shoot them down as well, especially when i carry the 50 cal gun pods hehe http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif It will be a matter of tactics and using wingmen in the late war. The Japanese were capable of producing very good to equally matched plane sof the US, they just ran out of quality material and pilots to fly them.

"It was a marveleous aircraft! It was the best aircraft I flew in the war by far. I never flew the P-51, its been one of my life regrets, but I flew just about everything else there was. I liked the P-38s rate of climb, its speed, the way it handled, and its firepower directly out the nose. The P-38 would turn with almost anything, in fact it would out turn the P-47, out climb it, and out maneuver it. The P-38 was one of the great aircraft of WWII."...Charles MacDonald, P-38 Ace

MEGILE
06-04-2004, 07:26 AM
Amen brother

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jpatrick62
06-04-2004, 10:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
rgr faustnik i know about the F4U4. i put that plane in the same category as the P47N . very uber and i doubt we will get it.

_knightsmove-taylor.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think if the F4U-4 was left out then something would definetly be wrong, especially since they did see combat with Japanese planes in the last several monthe of the war. Depending on your tastes for reality, I could see including or excluding those planes which never saw actual combat such as the p51H or F8F, (though they would be nice to have in there), but planes which saw combat should be included. I guess the cutoff for any of the late model fighters will upset someone either way.

Doug_Thompson
06-04-2004, 10:10 AM
The Japanese "Frank," for instance, was a better airplane than anything the allies had -- in proving ground conditions.

The problem here is that performance was severely degraded because of poor-quality Japanese fuel, sub-par Japanese aircraft maintenance and quality control problems at bombed, over-burdened factories who lacked enough trained labor.

The Frank, for instance, had a high-pressure fuel supply system that chronically failed because of the factors listed above. Even when it worked, allied pilots had higher-octane fuel.

A Frank tested in the U.S. after the war whipped the latest version of the Mustang in every category -- but was put into prime running condition and given good gas.

BlitzPig_DDT
06-04-2004, 10:15 AM
Please provide full details of this test.

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Doug_Thompson
06-04-2004, 10:18 AM
Sure, but I'm in the office now and the book that mentions the test is at home. It will be sometime this evening.

For anybody who can't wait, the test is mentioned in Francillion's "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War."

Also, although this group seems to want more solid information than what you find on web-pages, this one (http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/ki84performanceaj_1.htm)looks pretty good. It says a mint-condition Ki-84 can just hold its own and needs a skillful pilot to do that.

[This message was edited by Doug_Thompson on Fri June 04 2004 at 09:34 AM.]

sugaki
06-04-2004, 11:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I do worry about this, because the first time one of you gets owned by a Ki whatever, you will run screaming like little girls to Oleg about the "UBER" "overmodeled" Jap planes.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto. People have passionately cried out against the Ki-84 because they expected their P51s and P47s to swat them out the sky.

The reality is that late-war Japanese planes fought on par with US planes. The only problem was that there weren't enough late-war planes to turn the tide--even in '44 Oscars and Zeroes were pretty common.

k5054
06-04-2004, 12:04 PM
That Ki-84 test is indeed mentioned by francillon, but the actual test report does not seem to be available, and it would include some data about how the high octane fuel could help. If you don't increase the boost the high octane does nothing. Anybody seen the report of that test, as opposed to 'quotes' from it? A bench test of the Homare engine would be good too, there are some strange things about the figures which are usually quoted.

RedDeth
06-04-2004, 01:00 PM
ElAurens FMs above 7.5k are modelled. i think your referring to the much quoted number 10k high. not 7.5k high.

and this is in fact totally false. some planes at 11000 meters fly TOTALLY different than other planes so flight models are modelled up there. also some planes such as the I185 have to decrease fuel mix at about 11000 meters and again at 12000 meters down to 20 percent at 12k. so planes are modelled with necessary adjustments built in at 12,000 meters.

and a ki84 in FB can completely outperfom a mustang at 11,000 meters. which everyone knows the ki84 lost a huge percentage of its power above 7000 meters. making it very easy pickings for p38s, jugs, stangs, hellcats, corsairs, etc etc etc. this is what im talking about. and all japanese planes performed similarly at HIGH altitudes. the late war jap planes could get up there but they couldnt perform on par with their lower level performance thus making them purely targets up high.

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Doug_Thompson
06-04-2004, 01:10 PM
Although the "purely targets" comment is probably too harsh, it is true that Franks had a one-stage supercharger and that their performance fell off dramatically at very high altitudes. That's one reason they weren't the greatest at intercepting B-29's in the daylight raids. I should have mentioned that in my earllier "every category" comment.

reisen52
06-04-2004, 01:50 PM
The F4U-4 saw combat. Kenneth Walsh who is the top Corsair ace, and Medal of Honor recipient, flew F4F-4 "white 13" during the Okinawa campaign. Walsh downed his 21st and final
Japanese aircraft, a Kamikaze, over north Okinawa on June 22, 1945.

The P-80 also flew in the war zone in July.

Reisen

lrrp22
06-04-2004, 02:02 PM
Are you referring to the Ki-84's performance in general (and as modeled in FB) or the HP output of the Homare? I would say both are highly speculative.

I think most of the accepted (high) performance figures for the Ki-84 are based more on U.S. TAIC manual predictions and estimations than on actual Japanese, or even American, test data.

This subject has been discussed at length on ORR and, from my perspective, I don't think these performance numbers were ever proven to be representative of a Japanese-flown Frank.

FB's Ki-84 performance matches exactly the numbers quoted in a U.S. TAIC manual dated March, 1945. Clark Field and the first Ki-84's weren't captured until the end of Januray 1945, making it highly unlikely that a document published in March contained actual test data. British tests comparing the Clark Field Frank to various aircraft weren't conducted until May of 1945. Those tests found that the Clark Field Frank was capable of 400 mph at 20,000 ft as oppossed to the TAIC's (and FB's) 427 mph.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by k5054:
That Ki-84 test is indeed mentioned by francillon, but the actual test report does not seem to be available, and it would include some data about how the high octane fuel could help. If you don't increase the boost the high octane does nothing. Anybody seen the report of that test, as opposed to 'quotes' from it? A bench test of the Homare engine would be good too, there are some strange things about the figures which are usually quoted.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

k5054
06-04-2004, 03:38 PM
I'm dubious about both the performance of the Hayate and the Homare. 427mph seems like 15-20mph too high, but that's a guess. I'd like to see real data, what happened to that report.
The British Clark Field report is of an aircraft with a bad CSU, and the 400mph is an estimate (I've read the original).
The homare it seems had 2000hp from an engine the same size as the DB605, using less rpm and less boost. This makes me suspect the figures.

lrrp22
06-04-2004, 04:43 PM
Interesting...

I assume the 400 mph figure estimates top speed for a Ki-84 with a properly functioning constant speed unit.

With regard to the Ha-45, it does seems counter-intuitive that Japan's powerplant industry should, in the face of ever-increasing production challenges, suddenly overcome its inability to field a high output motor and do so with lesser displacement and manifold pressure than those produced elsewhere.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by k5054:
I'm dubious about both the performance of the Hayate and the Homare. 427mph seems like 15-20mph too high, but that's a guess. I'd like to see real data, what happened to that report.
The British Clark Field report is of an aircraft with a bad CSU, and the 400mph is an estimate (I've read the original).
The homare it seems had 2000hp from an engine the same size as the DB605, using less rpm and less boost. This makes me suspect the figures.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gunner_361st
06-04-2004, 05:38 PM
Well, I always thought the Frank we have in FB was curious, so I checked the object viewer... 687 km/h topspeed at 6,120 meters. That translates to 425 miles per hour.

I've seen that US test of the Frank after the war posted in these forums. Ideally fixed up and with high octane fuel (over 120, if I remember correctly) it was said it managed to reach that speed of 425 miles per hour.

Well, that is that. I'm not going to complain or anything, because I really don't care if a plane's characteristics are optimistically modeled or not. It just won't be in any of the missions I make, along with the LA-7. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Major Gunner of the 361st vFG

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Giganoni
06-04-2004, 05:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by k5054:
I'm dubious about both the performance of the Hayate and the Homare. 427mph seems like 15-20mph too high, but that's a guess. I'd like to see real data, what happened to that report.
The British Clark Field report is of an aircraft with a bad CSU, and the 400mph is an estimate (I've read the original).
The homare it seems had 2000hp from an engine the same size as the DB605, using less rpm and less boost. This makes me suspect the figures.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, the Ha-45, 2000HP? Only the best and latestest of the Ha-45 engines, the Ha-45-25 could amass 2,000hp during takeoff. It was used with the Ki-84 II. The best the Ki-84 I had in terms of HP was the Ha-45-21 with 1990 hp at take off.

http://img74.photobucket.com/albums/v225/giganoni/IL2/giganoni2.jpg

lrrp22
06-04-2004, 06:00 PM
Actually 687 kph is 426.882008904 mph http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif which (almost) exactly matches the 427 mph indicated in the March, 1945 TAIC data. The object viewers seal level speed matches the TAIC data exactly as well.

Coincidence? I think not...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gunner_361st:
Well, I always thought the Frank we have in FB was curious, so I checked the object viewer... 687 km/h topspeed at 6,120 meters. That translates to 425 miles per hour.

I've seen that US test of the Frank after the war posted in these forums. Ideally fixed up and with high octane fuel (over 120, if I remember correctly) it was said it managed to reach that speed of 425 miles per hour.

Well, that is that. I'm not going to complain or anything, because I really don't care if a plane's characteristics are optimistically modeled or not. It just won't be in any of the missions I make, along with the LA-7. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Major Gunner of the 361st vFG

http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1087.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doug_Thompson
06-04-2004, 07:37 PM
Francillon, page 236
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As demostrated by a captured aircraft restored at the Middletown Air Depot, Pennsylvania, in the spring of 1946, the Ki-84's performance was truly spectacular; at a weight of 7,490 lb, considered representative of combat operations, the aircraft reached a speed of 427 mph at 20,000 ft using War Emergency Power. This speed exceeded that of the North American P-51D-25-NA Mustang and Republic P-47D-35-RA Thunderbolt at the same altitude by 3 mph and 22 mph respectively.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, though, let me remind everbody that I'm actually on the other side of this argument. Francillon says in the same article that inferior workmanship at the factories plagued the Frank, and that the high-pressure fuel breakdowns were not fixed until a late version of the plane, where designers found an acceptable low-pressure alternative.

AdmiralWarlord
06-04-2004, 07:53 PM
Remember it is the pilot not the plane! American planes were great - their pilot training was excellent. However, contrary to what we have heard during the cold war, there were also excellent German, British, Soviet, and Japanese planes.

RedDeth
06-05-2004, 03:03 AM
rgr. but back on topic.... to the best of my knowledge japanese late war fighters could NOT get up enough power at 30,000 to 35,000 feet to fight american fighters. aka 10,000 meters.

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k5054
06-05-2004, 04:06 AM
Yes, I've got Francillon, of course, and I've read the same thing in Green and Gunston, but it is EXACTLY the same thing, and therefore comes from one source, maybe the first magazine or book to make the claim, and not from the actual report.
Has anyone seen the report itself? If it exists, I'd like to see the rest of it, I'd like to see how the Ki-84 competes with the 51H and 47N. I'm not happy with supposed quotes from it. All those AFDU reports you see around here can be seen in scans of the original.

The thing about the Homare is different. Surely the 2000/1990hp version is what we need to do 427mph? 2000hp from 35.7 litres with 50 in hg is pretty good going, the DB605 needed 60in/1.98 ata, and used a big supercharger to get it, which Ha-45 did not have, it seems. Maybe there's a reasonable explanation.

Finally, I do believe that the game should give the best performance which can be verified, as is the policy now as I understand it. I'm not sure the 427mph can be verified, but I'm open to persuasion. Either way, this is the nearest to an uberplane the IJ forces had, otherwise parity is the best they could hope for, and then not with the latest Allied types.

Doug_Thompson
06-05-2004, 08:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Yes, I've got Francillon, of course, and I've read the same thing in Green and Gunston, but it is EXACTLY the same thing, and therefore comes from one source, maybe the first magazine or book to make the claim, and not from the actual report.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Accusing three leading authors in the field of plagerism AND an inaccurate one at that. Wow.

ElAurens
06-05-2004, 09:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug_Thompson:
Accusing three leading authors in the field of plagerism AND an inaccurate one at that. Wow.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The fact is that they all are quoting from the same report. Using the same language.

I believe that some time ago SkyChimp did some looking around on the subject of the US tests of the Ki 84, and deduced that the test report no longer exists.

I might add that the speed achieved at the depot in Pennsylvania and reported on is not inaccurate. It is the speed that that aircraft attained. What we don't know are the exact test conditions, and the extent of tuning/rebuilding/modifications done to that particular aircraft.

_____________________________

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BlitzPig_EL

k5054
06-05-2004, 01:58 PM
quote:Originally posted by Doug_Thompson:
Accusing three leading authors in the field of plagerism AND an inaccurate one at that. Wow.

Well, I'm accusing them of research. And it looks like they all used the same source, no harm in that. If they saw the report, that's even better, but the quotes from the report are not enough to assess the conditions which led the testers to conclude that the Hayate was as good as it is claimed.
Perhaps you are not familiar with some of the people on this board (or at least ORR) who carry on complaining about the validity of tests when they can SEE the report itself. This captured plane was tired, that one had the wrong boost limits and so on. When a report makes the kind of claims this one makes, different from the claims of even the operating service of the a/c concerned, it's reasonable to question it.
My questions would be:
Was it properly carried out by a flight test organization?
What boost was used, at what height?
Were the P-51 and P-47 present, or is it a paper comparison?

lrrp22
06-05-2004, 04:07 PM
I think the assumption that the 427 mph speed comes from the Middletown/Wright Field test, or any other, may not be a correct one.

At some point the March 1945 TAIC data (which I believe are U.S. estimates of performance) may have become improperly associated with the Clark Field trials and possibly even the 1946 Wright Field test. All the various sources which claim the 427 mph speed and 2 and 22 mph speed advantage all seem to come back to the TAIC data at some point.


Here is the TAIC performance data as posted by butch2k:

http://img2.photobucket.com/albums/v11/brentce/ki84-perfdata1.jpg

http://img2.photobucket.com/albums/v11/brentce/ki84-perfdata2.jpg


I think that it's reasonable to assume that these are the numbers Oleg used to model FB's Ki-84, and not the elusive Japanese data that some have claimed. The sea level and 20k ft War Emegency speeds are identical as are the engine designation and take-off HP figures.


Muddying the waters further is the fact that the same 3 and 22 mph respective speed advantages and climb superiority have also been associated with the P-51H and P-47N by Jane's in 'Jane's WWII Aircraft' (IIRC) as well as various websites.

A look at P-51H performance figures show that even at 427 mph the Frank would have been nearly 40 mph slower than the H at 20k and the 4300 fpm climb rate was far behind the P-51H's 5200+ fpm ROC.

Again, without specific reference to documents and access to the documents themselves, it is nearly impossible to determine what is primary research and what are secondary or anecdotal accounts.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by k5054:
quote:Originally posted by Doug_Thompson:
Accusing three leading authors in the field of plagerism AND an inaccurate one at that. Wow.

Well, I'm accusing them of research. And it looks like they all used the same source, no harm in that. If they saw the report, that's even better, but the quotes from the report are not enough to assess the conditions which led the testers to conclude that the Hayate was as good as it is claimed.
Perhaps you are not familiar with some of the people on this board (or at least ORR) who carry on complaining about the validity of tests when they can SEE the report itself. This captured plane was tired, that one had the wrong boost limits and so on. When a report makes the kind of claims this one makes, different from the claims of even the operating service of the a/c concerned, it's reasonable to question it.
My questions would be:
Was it properly carried out by a flight test organization?
What boost was used, at what height?
Were the P-51 and P-47 present, or is it a paper comparison?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message was edited by lrrp22 on Sat June 05 2004 at 03:19 PM.]

CHDT
06-06-2004, 03:42 AM
Were these tests made with US fuel or Japanese fuel? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I believe the difference can be important for modeling realistically a Ki-84 as it was used by the Japanese airforce.

Cheers,

Ruy Horta
06-06-2004, 04:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lrrp22:
At some point the March 1945 TAIC data <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lrrp, please check your PT notifications.

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Ruy Horta

Ruy Horta
06-06-2004, 04:17 AM
From:

http://www.j-aircraft.com/faq/ki84_pt2.htm

Re: Ki-84 performance data

Posted By: richard dunn
Date: Thursday, 18 April 2002, at 2:58 p.m.

In Response To: Ki-84 performance data (Steve C)

I have a copy of a translation of a captured document (hand written notes) of unknown reliability which indicates two maximum speeds for the Ki 84-1 (Light) and Ki 84-1 (Improved). The two speeds apparently relate to the Ha 45 rating of 2000 hp at 1500 meters and 1800hp at 6000 meters.

Ki 84-1 (Light) 664 kph (=412 mph) and 693 kph (=430 mph)

Ki 84-1 (Improved) 658 kph (=409 mph) and 688 kph (=427 mph).

Fully equiped wgt of Light = 3576 kg; Improved = 3858 kg

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Ruy Horta

k5054
06-06-2004, 03:14 PM
Strange how that 427mph keeps cropping up, it's not even a round number in km, but now we see it in the TAIC data, the captured doc and the 'Wright field test'.

I have no problem with believing an aircraft looking as clean as the Ki-84 could get 427 mph at 20,000 with 1800 hp. I just wanna see a real test.
And as mentioned I have trouble with the 2000/1800hp, unless there is something unusual about the Homare that hasn't been explained yet.
Also 412 at 1500 metres implies a s/l speed of 390-400mph. Which seems a little high.

lrrp22
06-06-2004, 04:30 PM
1800 HP at 6000m seems like an awful lot for a single-stage, two-speed supercharged engine with a rated altitude, IIRC, somewhere around 2000 meters. Losing only 170 HP from sea level to nearly 20,000 ft would seem to require a two-stage, two-speed SC or large turbocharger.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by k5054:
Strange how that 427mph keeps cropping up, it's not even a round number in km, but now we see it in the TAIC data, the captured doc and the 'Wright field test'.

I have no problem with believing an aircraft looking as clean as the Ki-84 could get 427 mph at 20,000 with 1800 hp. I just wanna see a real test.
And as mentioned I have trouble with the 2000/1800hp, unless there is something unusual about the Homare that hasn't been explained yet.
Also 412 at 1500 metres implies a s/l speed of 390-400mph. Which seems a little high.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Giganoni
06-06-2004, 09:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lrrp22:
1800 HP at 6000m seems like an awful lot for a single-stage, two-speed supercharged engine with a rated altitude, IIRC, somewhere around 2000 meters. Losing only 170 HP from sea level to nearly 20,000 ft would seem to require a two-stage, two-speed SC or large turbocharger.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um...where does it say 1800 hp at 6000m? The Ha-45-11 had 1800hp during take off and at 6500 ft (thats feet) sources say it went down to 1650hp.

I really don't see the big conspriracy here.

Here is an interesting website, I do not know its credibility but, you can look at the engine specs.
http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/ki84performanceaj_1.htm

I would like to know what the differences between the F6F-3 and the F4U-1 engines were after looking at that website.

http://img74.photobucket.com/albums/v225/giganoni/IL2/giganoni2.jpg

k5054
06-07-2004, 01:28 AM
"
quote:Originally posted by lrrp22:
1800 HP at 6000m seems like an awful lot for a single-stage, two-speed supercharged engine with a rated altitude, IIRC, somewhere around 2000 meters. Losing only 170 HP from sea level to nearly 20,000 ft would seem to require a two-stage, two-speed SC or large turbocharger.



Um...where does it say 1800 hp at 6000m? The Ha-45-11 had 1800hp during take off and at 6500 ft (thats feet) sources say it went down to 1650hp.
"

That's the -11, the 427mph claim is usually associated with the -21 or 23, which had 2000hp at s/l and 1800hp in high gear at 20,000ft, rounded, because there are slight differences in the various sources. Now if the 388/392 at 20,000 figure is with the -11, a 10% rise in HP will give around 3% more speed, so we would expect 404mph. Exhaust ejectors weren't fitted to the 388mph prototype, so maybe there's an extra 20mph there, you can get into the 420mph ballpark, given a couple of assumptions. The doubts about the engine remain to be cleared up.

WUAF_Badsight
06-07-2004, 03:50 AM
P-51 D motor = One 1,590hp Packard V-1650-7

Ki-84 motor = one 1,900hp Nakajima Ha-45

this Mustang is not a threat to the Hayate George

far inferior turn & climb & level speed

especially turn

the Mustang was never a great turn fighter

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
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PikeBishop
06-07-2004, 04:25 AM
I don't have a problem with this. I think that if the campaigns are allowed to happen free roaming and not be fixed as history, then as I said in an earlier post it could be much more interesting than history.
Once Midway is fought there is no way in the game any side could be as unlucky as the japs were in this battle. The outcome should be much more in favour of the Japanese, in which case all the less well known japanese types would emerge much more prominently and in greater numbers leading to better senario's. The war would last a lot longer with balanced sides since both sides will have adequate resources including Trained pilots, improved aircraft and Aircraft Carriers for a longer period. This will stop either side whining about the other having better aircraft.

regards,

SLP

lrrp22
06-07-2004, 10:03 AM
Badsight,

Good to see that you can still be counted on to spread misinformation.

Do you have anything to bring other than incorrect data and unsupported declarations? If past performance is any indication then I would expect not.

Actual data:

P-51D: One 1720 (minimum) to 2020 HP Packard Merlin V-1650-7.

Remember Badsight, all those VIIth Fighter Command Mustangs flying over Japan were running 80" WEP and 2,000 HP.

-superior speed in level flight, at any altitude, to any Japanese-flown Ki-84.

-better dive performance

-better high(er) speed handling

-far superior construction and reliability

-comparable or superior climb depending on circumstances (fuel load and boost levels)



Ki-84: 1800 to 2000 HP- Probably much closer to the former than the latter.

-relatively fast...for a Japanese fighter...if it had decent fuel...if it didn't catch fire...

-turns well at low, middle-speeds

-climbs well relative to Mustang, depending on weights/boost levels


You're once again confusing your beloved Forgotten Battles Ki-84 with the reality that existed in 1944/45. So please, don't quote the Object Viewer.

BTW, what is a Hayate George?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
P-51 D motor = One 1,590hp Packard V-1650-7

Ki-84 motor = one 1,900hp Nakajima Ha-45

this Mustang is not a threat to the Hayate George

far inferior turn & climb & level speed

especially turn

the Mustang was never a great turn fighter

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tater-SW-
06-07-2004, 10:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PikeBishop:
...
Once Midway is fought there is no way in the game any side could be as unlucky as the japs were in this battle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It wasn't luck. The specifics of the damage they recieved was certainly lucky, but the fact they were in a position to be ambushed wasn't luck at all.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The outcome should be much more in favour of the Japanese, in which case all the less well known japanese types would emerge much more prominently and in greater numbers leading to better senario's. The war would last a lot longer with balanced sides since both sides will have adequate resources including Trained pilots, improved aircraft and Aircraft Carriers for a longer period. This will stop either side whining about the other having better aircraft.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Japanese would have had to have started a serious pilot traing program before the war started. Their training was designed to cull out all but what they considered the best, and resulted in tiny numbers of new aircrews. As for ship construction, the USN could have lost all three CVs at Midway and the IJN none, and the US still would have been ahead in CVs and embarked aircraft by the end of 1943.

Fuel of course would always be an taxing issue since the IJN considered ASW work to be "defensive" and not the best job. As such, they almost completely neglected ASW capability, and even late in the war when they started using "convoys" they were maybe 10 ships---not real convoys. Regardless, tankers had a rough time getting home to turn their cargo into fuel for the IJN/AF aircraft.

The japanese will fare far better in any sim since a lot of the background won't ever be modeled.

tater

ElAurens
06-07-2004, 10:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lrrp22:

You're once again confusing your beloved Forgotten Battles Ki-84 with the reality that existed in 1944/45.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you are forgetting that the Ki84 in game is the one we will be flying...

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

_____________________________

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BlitzPig_EL

Ruy Horta
06-07-2004, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
The Japanese would have had to have started a serious pilot traing program before the war started. Their training was designed to cull out all but what they considered the best, and resulted in tiny numbers of new aircrews. As for ship construction, the USN could have lost all three CVs at Midway and the IJN none, and the US still would have been ahead in CVs and embarked aircraft by the end of 1943.

Fuel of course would always be an taxing issue since the IJN considered ASW work to be "defensive" and not the best job. As such, they almost completely neglected ASW capability, and even late in the war when they started using "convoys" they were maybe 10 ships---not real convoys. Regardless, tankers had a rough time getting home to turn their cargo into fuel for the IJN/AF aircraft.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two comments that could be made regarding these statements.

We are talking 20/20 hind sight.

Since Japan is relatively small, an elite AF capable of knocking out a stronger enemy in the first round, albeit a PERCEIVED knock out, is preferable over a larger, but less specialized one, since it cannot be expected to win a battle of attrition against said stronger foe.

The name of the game is making your enemy believe that continuing the war will be too costly; if not at the level of government at least on the level of the population.

In 1941 Soviet Russia was on the brink of accepting defeat before they were actually defeated.

France accepted defeat before they were actually defeated, in order to save what could be saved.

Its not a surprise that the US could out produce Japan, and they knew it at the time.

As for ASW, its a similar story.

The Japanese were not interested in a long war, since that would mean a battle of attrition that they knew could not be won.

They wanted a decisive fleet action, like Tsu-Shima, ASAP. Getting the US to commit their carriers and battlewagons in a classic slugfest, which they could have won. Fleet subs to snipe the US fleet fleet while en route, carriers to engage at range, to cause the first attrition followed by a classic big gun encounter.

The first attempt failed, much due to Magic, the second failed terribly because the Japanese did not have the numbers nor the quality to fight this type of battle in 1944.

IMHO, and I am not alone in thinking this, the Japanese were a victim of their own Tsu-Shima myth, and up to Midway who could blame them?

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Ruy Horta

lrrp22
06-07-2004, 12:30 PM
ElAurens,

I realize that.

However, I believe that a clear distinction should be made between real-world aircraft performance circa the 1940's and the somewhat massaged virtual reality we find in FB. My interest in the subject is more driven by historical context than game play issues.

Inane statements like "this Mustang is not a threat to the Hayate George" based on no better resources than the Object Viewer do nothing but reinforce the twisted Hyperlobby dogfighting room's view of WWII aerial combat.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElAurens:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lrrp22:

You're once again confusing your beloved Forgotten Battles Ki-84 with the reality that existed in 1944/45.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But _you_ are forgetting that the Ki84 in game is the one we will be flying...

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

_____________________________

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__BlitzPig_EL__<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tater-SW-
06-07-2004, 01:24 PM
Ruy,

true enough, but a protracted war is exactly what was bound to happen. The short war theory they hoped for made the assumption that the US lacked the will to fight a protracted war far from home. This was wrong on its face.

It was particularly wrong after Pearl Harbor. The surprise attack made any chance for a negotiated end to hostilities unfavorable to the US virtually impossible.

Back to gaming, we won;t have to worry with that, the japanese won;t suffer any of the RL problems they had, making it much more competitive.

tater

jpatrick62
06-07-2004, 03:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug_Thompson:
Sure, but I'm in the office now and the book that mentions the test is at home. It will be sometime this evening.

For anybody who can't wait, the test is mentioned in Francillion's "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War."

Also, although this group seems to want more solid information than what you find on web-pages, http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/ki84performanceaj_1.htmlooks pretty good. It says a mint-condition Ki-84 can just hold its own and needs a skillful pilot to do that.

[This message was edited by Doug_Thompson on Fri June 04 2004 at 09:34 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doug, something is seriously wrong with these numbers, they simply don't match up to official test numbers for the F6F and F4U from Patuxent naval Air station. For instance look at the power/weight ration on the f6f and F4u and see that it is higher than the P51B but neither both ahve pathetic climb rates - almost as if they weren't on Combat or Wep.

ElAurens
06-07-2004, 03:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lrrp22:
ElAurens,

I realize that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not arguing with you here. Just pointing out the obvious I guess.

the real problem with historical game play is that we all know what both side did wrong, so we won't do that. The only way to achieve any kind of historical outcomes would be to put total n00bs in the Allied planes for planesets up to say, late '42 early '43. then switch the experten to the Allied side and move the n00bs to the Japanese side for the rest of the war.

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CV8_Dudeness
06-07-2004, 10:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lrrp22:

However, I believe that a clear distinction should be made between real-world aircraft performance circa the 1940's and the somewhat massaged virtual reality we find in FB. My interest in the subject is more driven by historical context than game play issues.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

why do you even post here then &gt;?

this is a game forum isnt it ?

isnt there some web forum somewhere , where you can gather with other blind amerincan plane fans about how great they were not ?

RedDeth
06-08-2004, 02:40 AM
dudeness he is saying he wants the planes modelled correctly not like star wars. get off the attitude and leave that at ubi general forums. PF forums are way more cool

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k5054
06-08-2004, 04:46 AM
A few random points.

The american planes had a good kill ratio over all the german and japanese planes, fighter to fighter. It's reasonable to say that is the result of them being better. (It may notr be right, but it's reasonable). The opposite position, my plane didn't have a chance because of radar, ultra, pilot training, fuel, yada yada, is less reasonable (it may not be wrong).

Japan never had a chance after Pearl Harbour. If everything went right for the allies they could win in 1944, say, if wrong, 1946. No scenario short of a Japanese A-bomb lets them win after they pi$$ America off. From their way different cultural background they misjudged America completely.

That guy on Hyperscale has used empty weight for all his comparisons. That makes no sense at all. It would be useless even if each country defined empty weight the same way, but they don't. (Some don't include guns or radios, some have fully equipped just no crew and empty fuel and ammo.)

Why do the IJ whiners want to allow a Frank using US-grade fuel, but not allow a P-51 to have the same advantage? Best it could be is the rule, isn't it?

WUAF_Badsight
06-08-2004, 04:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by k5054:

A few random points.

Japan never had a chance after Pearl Harbour. If everything went right for the allies they could win in 1944, say, if wrong, 1946. No scenario short of a Japanese A-bomb lets them win after they pi$$ America off.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

random is correct

if Japan captured midway thats it ..... no more Pacific war for America ......

it was damm lucky that America won that battle or the whole Pacific would have been doomed to quite a few more years of violent war

as for the fuel remark .... you do realise that higher grade fuel does Nothing on its own

that the Hayate did that speed on that fuel is false .....

the Nakajima company tested their Hayates on 92 octane

.
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Ruy Horta
06-08-2004, 06:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
if Japan captured midway thats it ..... no more Pacific war for America ......

as for the fuel remark .... you do realise that higher grade fuel does Nothing on its own<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Regarding point one.

This depended on the psychology of American government, military leadership and the Americans during this period.

The American government and military leadership certainly wasn't defeatist after Pearl, the war being on the periphery would hardly change with a defeat at Midway.

The fall of the Philippines was far worse than either Pearl Harbor and this did not chance the resolve of America to continue the war. Perhaps the fall of Australia might have made a decisive difference.

Personally I do not think that Americans were able to think of war against the Japanese in terms of defeat, hence were psychologically unable to accept any form of defeat based on military set backs on their periphery.

In 1940 there might have been a very slight chance, december 1941 the US was already starting a wartime economy (albeit in support of Britain and a rebuilding effort).

You might go as far, although I will risk the anger of some here, that the US leadership was at this stage "itching" for war.

Regarding fuel, you are right.

You cannot just use 100+ octane in an engine which has been specifically tuned to use 92. However there was a big difference in fuel purity, since the Japanese started to dilute their fuel with palm oil dirivatives...

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Ruy Horta

WOLFMondo
06-08-2004, 06:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I'm not at all worried about the American planes either...I'm concerned that nobody will fly for the Japanese side. The Hellcat is a very strong contender for all around awesome fighter and the P-51 is already an excellent fighter in game that people are skilled at or becoming accustomed to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bah! Im concerned about the British planes more than either the US or Japanese. Althought its nice to have a varied selection to shoot downhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If its a WW2 sim I only want WW2 planes and planes that saw combat. Not planes that appeared in September 1945 etc.

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http://www.wolfgaming.net<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well as long as they provide us with a flyable SEAC/RAAF Spitfire Mark VIII...us commonwealth types will be right at home and with a plane that is more than capable of besting the contemporary Japanese fighters. The Seafire Mark III which I think is the one were getting won't be quite as capable but still decent. There is good reason for even having a Spitfire FR XIV which I have pictures of from Squadron Signal with SEAC markings in the PTO. Evidently that mark did fly missions and shoot down at least 10 Japanese fighters during the final weeks of the war.

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I'd hope the Mk VIII is a priority. An XIV is needed as it was the last mass produced version. Once thats in theres no need for more Spitwhining http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

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PikeBishop
06-08-2004, 07:39 AM
Just one point about Midway......both sides were in a position to be ambushed as you put it.
What I think is improtant here is that when the japanese carriers were attacked they were in a position with no air cover whilst at the same time loading up on the deck......those 2 things alone would be a chance in a few hundred thousand. Then if we add in the fact that of all the spotter planes that were searching for the Americans, the one that would have found them failed to launch and was 2 hours late. Then when it did find them the radio did not work. Then add in the fact that the US dive bombers that got the carriers were'nt even looking for them, but going home, that pushes the bad luck chances into that of winning the lottery.
In game it is far more likely that either the battle would have ended up stalemate or the US gets a little bit lucky and sinks 2 of the Jap carriers......At least that is what I think......

Regards,

SLP

Tater-SW-
06-08-2004, 08:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
if Japan captured midway thats it ..... no more Pacific war for America ......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not even remotely true. Winning Midway in the large scale would mean nothing, just a few months delay in the end game. The US built more merchant shipping in the first half of '43 than Japan built in total during the war and the preceeding years of increased activity in China. Worst case we might have taken a "Japan First" policy. There is no possible way politically FDR could wage war against the Germans, but not the japanese after pearl harbor. No way.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>it was damm lucky that America won that battle or the whole Pacific would have been doomed to quite a few more years of violent war<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe a year. It was certainly a good thing we won. Losing in Midway would not be a disaster though. Japane actually invades. They now have to hold Midway vs constant air attack from Hawaii. The planes they fly in defense have to be carried there. The gas does as well. Holding Midway would be debilitating for the IJN. The IJN was an excellent offensive navy, but they utterly failed every single test of logistics they gave themselves. Look at Guadalcanal, they used destroyers as transports... yeesh, what a waste.

Also, the entire desire for (a warped idea of) a Mahanian "desisive battle" requires that the other side then decide to sue for peace terms. Wouldn't have happened. The US was willing to invade Japan with casualty estimates in the millions. Will was not a problem.

Ruy Horta
06-08-2004, 08:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
Also, the entire desire for (a warped idea of) a Mahanian "desisive battle" requires that the other side then decide to sue for peace terms. Wouldn't have happened. The US was willing to invade Japan with casualty estimates in the millions. Will was not a problem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps the US (both population and government) were willing to suffer casualties in the millions in 44/45, but would they have accepted such a cost in 41-42?

The trouble with these hypothetical debates is contamination, what is hind sight, what is not, what is typical of later psychology and what is not.

The terrible IF-word creeps along.

Interesting that Pearl Harbor is pivotal, but the Phillipines are not. Did the Japanese overextend themselves with that single action. Did it make the difference between a colonial or a total war?

IMHO the Japanese would have had a better chance of "winning" a war (or negociated peace) if they had let the US use their pacific fleet as planned, with the focus on battleships. An offensive defeat of the US Navy could have been that decisive battle IF it had been early enough in the war.

The Japanese were a victim of their early successes, they went to far, their gains had become unacceptable. A limited war would have been different, but the Japanese went double or nothing.

If...

Personally I am still convinced that the root of Japanese (Naval) thinking lies with the Russo-Japanese war.

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Ruy Horta

Ruy Horta
06-08-2004, 09:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PikeBishop:
In game it is far more likely that either the battle would have ended up stalemate or the US gets a little bit lucky and sinks 2 of the Jap carriers......At least that is what I think......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a paper excercise, without the benefit of luck and intelligence, the Japanese would have the odds in their favour.

The main advantage for the USN being their superior damage control and the sturdiness of their aircraft.

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Ruy Horta

WOLFMondo
06-08-2004, 10:00 AM
In reference to the Japanese taking and holding Midway, as pointed out the logistical problems of resupply and keeping troops and kit up to operational levels would have led to it being taken back.

The USN and to a lesser extent the RN would have targetted the shipping going to and from Midway from the Japanese territories. Taking Midway and holding it for the strategic value would have been outweighed by the resource drain just to hold it. Japans gaines would have stretched all the way from the edge of India to the middle of the Pacific. How could they have managed to keep all that and provide the resources to back it all up?!?!

In the end though whatever tactical advantage the Japanese had, the would have lost due to the superior allied ability to build equipment and the (harsh sounding) pool of human resources they could use. The allies simply had more people and equipment they could throw into battle. If it had gone on past 1945 due to Japanese victories that never happened just look at the numbers of ships and carriers that were commisioned and put into active service in 1945/46 or where already destined for the pacific (like half a dozen RN colossus class carriers). Not to mention the plan after the Nazi defeat to send a great deal of the US and British resources to the Pacific.

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lrrp22
06-08-2004, 10:35 AM
Why don't you go post on the Battlefield 1942 forums if all your interested in is 'gaming' the game with a-historical flight modeling for your favorite airplane?

If it is a sim you want then you should be as concerned with historical context as I am.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CV8_Dudeness:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lrrp22:

However, I believe that a clear distinction should be made between real-world aircraft performance circa the 1940's and the somewhat massaged virtual reality we find in FB. My interest in the subject is more driven by historical context than game play issues.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

why do you even post here then &gt;?

this is a game forum isnt it ?

isnt there some web forum somewhere , where you can gather with other blind amerincan plane fans about how great they were not ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

k5054
06-08-2004, 10:43 AM
Every territory Japan wins is another hostage to fortune. Their holdings are like one giant flank, whereas the US needs none of the lost territory to continue the war, it can be done on its own internal resources. Japan needs to clean sweep New Guinea, the Solomons and Australia to get a real advantage. Midway makes no difference to what happens in the SWPA. The war took a year longer than it had to in order to support the two pronged Pac/SWPac strategy, partly because of Army/Navy rivalry and partly to ensure the right victory conditions (US back in the Phillipines). Of course it might have taken a year longer if Japan's Army and Navy were on the same side, which it sometimes looked like they weren't.

Tater-SW-
06-08-2004, 02:16 PM
Yes, the US had the will in 1942. We needn't consider the 22 days of war in 1941, we were still pretty POed ;-)

The japanese couldn;t supply Midway even from a fuel standpoint. Their prewar estimates of needed bunker oil, and how long it would last after war started were grossly optimistic. Truk to Rabaul was a logistical issue fuel wise. Even runs down the slot were oil-limited. The mid pacific to Midway would have been a graveyard of japanese marus (more than it was already) trying to resupply it. They would have had to simply abandon it, or be bled badly trying to hold it.

The japanese had no coice but double or nothing. Before the war, the GHQ thought they had about a 10% chance of a win (and this via a negotiated peace). The alternative to them was what they considered a 100% defeat in leaving parts of China to appease the US.

I agree that the pricipal issue was Pearl. A limited colonial war might possibly have been negotiable. Attacking us (and the failure of the pre-attack declaration) at "home" (though not yet a state) was crucial in forming public opinion against the japanese. With pearl Harbor as a given as it happened, I see the chances of long term japanese victory as zero, even if they do everything else right, and we make every possible mistake (and unlearn how to read their mail ;-)

Heck, it would be interesting to see how PH would have turned out if the (timid, IMHO) Nagumo had listened to his air crews and launched the next wave attack that really mattered---hitting the bunker oil facilities and dry docks. They "sunk" 8 BBs. 6 were refloated to fight again. At least if they got the oil they would have crippled ops in the mid and west pacific for months. As it was, they created blind rage against them, and all for bumping off 2 BBs---ships that didn't really mattter any more.

tater

Giganoni
06-08-2004, 05:42 PM
If Japan had won the battle of Midway in a crushing victory of heavily damaging or sinking all American carriers then people naturally assume they would attack Hawaii yet again, but I was reading an interesting article from this scholarly journal about how well defended in terms of radar the canal zone was instead of Hawaii. Interesting to see how irrationally the navy feared a German attack (yes, I said German) while the army (air corp) feared Japan up until Pearl. The article said the military estimated a well done attack could have closed the canal for two years. So would Japan have attacked that next?

It would have delayed any ships coming from the atlantic for sure. The Japanese could have concentrated more on anti-sub defence (since there is no other major threat) and the entire American offensive would have had to been delayed. A delayed Guadalcanal (the landing of which had carrier support) means that Japan has the airfield completed and planes on the ground, planes that could spot the fleet approaching in time to warn major forces in Rabaul. Let us not forget that Nagumo still has his carriers in the area and Japan's well trained and equipped surface fleet has little to worry about closing with enemy ships that does not have carriers.

Do not forget that Japan made one of the fastest and biggest military offensives in the first 6 months defeating armies much larger than themselves and breaking the pride of both the British and the Americans. In fact not only were people mad about Pearl Harbor being a sneak attack (although from a military stand point it seems foolish to tell the enemy your coming.) but also that it was the Japanese that did it, deemed inferior as a race by a good deal of people during that time it was doubly shocking.

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Tater-SW-
06-08-2004, 07:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Giganoni:
If Japan had won the battle of Midway in a crushing victory of heavily damaging or sinking all American carriers then people naturally assume they would attack Hawaii yet again, but I was reading an interesting article from this scholarly journal about how well defended in terms of radar the canal zone was instead of Hawaii. Interesting to see how irrationally the navy feared a German attack (yes, I said German) while the army (air corp) feared Japan up until Pearl. The article said the military estimated a well done attack could have closed the canal for two years. So would Japan have attacked that next?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually Japan had a plan for attacking the canal with submarine-launched seaplanes. As a PF aside, will we see the IJN subs that carried seaplanes? &lt;G&gt;

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It would have delayed any ships coming from the atlantic for sure. The Japanese could have concentrated more on anti-sub defence (since there is no other major threat) and the entire American offensive would have had to been delayed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They never really took to such "defensive" duty. Even after it was clearly just a matter of time before they would lose. I don;t think they would have changed their ASW policy in a vacuum any faster than they did in RL with ships being sunk constantly by subs.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A delayed Guadalcanal (the landing of which had carrier support) means that Japan has the airfield completed and planes on the ground, planes that could spot the fleet approaching in time to warn major forces in Rabaul.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but 2 of the 3 CVs as air support for Guadalcanal were not even at Midway. So worst case Guadalcanal is on time with the Saratoga and Wasp alone (chances are the Ranger would have been moved from the ETO as well).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Let us not forget that Nagumo still has his carriers in the area and Japan's well trained and equipped surface fleet has little to worry about closing with enemy ships that does not have carriers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, IJN surface units were a force to be reckoned with, no question. Particularly at night. OTOH, while japanese planning was extremely bold, execution was often (not always) fairly timid... Pearl harbor, bold plan, timid decision to not make a 3d wave to hit the oil and drydocks. Coral Sea---tactical victory tempered by the utter failure overall since they abandoned the ambitious amphibeous landing at Port Moresby. Midway wasn't so bold (major force attacking little island, we did that all the time later in war), but it was fragmented stupidly into 4+ forces. Guadalcanal was serially attacked by varied forces, but never just hammered on by the Combined Fleet...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Do not forget that Japan made one of the fastest and biggest military offensives in the first 6 months defeating armies much larger than themselves and breaking the pride of both the British and the Americans. In fact not only were people mad about Pearl Harbor being a sneak attack (although from a military stand point it seems foolish to tell the enemy your coming.) but also that it was the Japanese that did it, deemed inferior as a race by a good deal of people during that time it was doubly shocking.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All true, but like the German advances, they were fast, effective, and COSTLY. The japanese were surprised early on by their enemies surrendering when they were close to being held off, particularly in the Philipines. The japanese were in a position where they had to do everything perfectly with minimal losses to have even a hope. The US could afford huge errors due to her massive resources.

as I've said though, the japanese will have it rough early in the war in a flight sim since we all know how NOT to fight them, and the japanese will do better than RL in the endgame since their planes won't suffer from a homeland industrial base that is lucky to get 1 in 10 shipments of raw materials delivered from abroad.

tater

WUAF_Badsight
06-08-2004, 10:03 PM
Tater SW . . . . .

how could you have fought anything but a defense with zero base of operations ?

after midway , then the island of New Gineau ...... no more american presence in the pacific

all the American navy could do is patrol their coastline or Australias

the game was up after Midway ..... but awesome blind luck threw their attack out the window

.
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Giganoni
06-09-2004, 12:04 AM
Well tater, your assuming the Sara and Wasp would be allowed to even get near Guadalcanal. If Nagumo's carriers were pretty much intact, I don't even know if the navy would even risk sending two or three carriers. Sara and Wasp are on the West coast but, ETO carriers, if the canal was destroyed soon after Midway had two options. Both ways would take longer. How could the invasion still be on time though?

I seriously doubt there would have even been a Guadalcanal if Midway was lost. Although it is true the Japanese really didn't know the extent of the invasion until it was near impossible to push back. But, no carrier support, doubtful there would have been a Cactus air force, no real reason for the JN surface fleet to be timid in the battles of Savo Island and the Marines would have been slaughtered. So I'm sure they would have worked out some other strategy, or waited until they felt they had sufficent strength.

Well, as for subs, with a huge victory at Midway I feel the Japanese would have enacted a rather defensive policy, based on the GEACPS. They had an excellent Anti-sub craft with the H8K which was equipped with avs radar, or at least some units were. I seriously doubt they would do as poorly as in RL because they would have more resources to concentrate on such a threat. Japan could have really been a threat if they had built many more H8Ks, instead of some of those useless medium bombers in the PTO

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RedDeth
06-09-2004, 02:25 AM
midway taken wouldnt have hurt the usa. now are you saying if they took midway and by luck sunk 2 more of our carriers also? taking the island of midway wouldnt do a thing to stop the usa. sinking carriers was what mattered. we could bypass just about any island or landmass and still move on japan. all america ever needed to do was isolate an island and it was good as dead. that would include midway.

remember in the middle of 1945 japan had ZERO carriers . and usa had 100 plus carriers. think about that for a second. now how important is the taking of midway again? NOT important.

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k5054
06-09-2004, 02:26 AM
Will somebody explain to me which IJ weapons of 1942 had the capacity to even dent a canal lock?
Think what was necessary to damage serious civil engineering projects in Germany, with fleets of bombers.
And how a country able to build 100 carriers in a couple of years would take so long to fix it if it was destroyed? Japan could never win unless the US lost confidence and settled for peace. Maybe if the first attack had been on British and Dutch colonies only and the US was not spurred to intervene. Even then the giant had to be faced sometime.
All this Japan could have won stuff is pure fantasy. They might have put off defeat until 1946.

WUAF_Badsight
06-09-2004, 03:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:

remember in the middle of 1945 japan had ZERO carriers . and usa had 100 plus carriers. think about that for a second. now how important is the taking of midway again? NOT important.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Midway didnt happen in 45 RedDeth

without any base to work from in the Pacific your stuffed ...... its a LONG way back to Pearl Harbor

so as for this :
"now how important is the taking of midway again? NOT important"

it was the final push of American power out of the Pacific ....... very important

it would have allowed Fortress Japan to form

take the Red , White & Blue shades off your eyes & think about it

.
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Ruy Horta
06-09-2004, 04:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Yes, the US had the will in 1942. We needn't consider the 22 days of war in 1941, we were still pretty POed<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ah, the trouble of "if" debates.

What does strike me is that people have a hard time of letting go the variables they know.

Soviet Russia was strikken far harder than the US, with German troops near Moscow, for many years people didn't know that at one point Stalin had lost his nerve, waiting in his private Dacha practically expecting his summary execution! It was however also Stalin who changed the nature of this fight, by adopting a patriotic stance (the salvation of mother RUSSIA, not Soviet Communism!!).

Even on paper, acquainted with Soviet resolve and the expanse of the country, we KNOW that the Soviets could never have been defeated by germans.

Yet, for a couple of weeks in 1941 how close they were...

In this debate we KNOW that the US could not have been defeated because of its production program following the official entry of the United States into WW2.

When people say 1941, we naturally assume december 7th, its already a form of contamination, for it shows we are looking at the events as happened. For a hypthetical scenario to work you MUST release this bagage.

It is no use thinking WW2 and just change one event. The point is that by changing a major event, the whole puzzle collapses.

Now as an excercise of thought. Had the US government not been as keen on war, but more cautious, would the US people have been as willing to fight in 1942? Remember Roosevelt's famous speech, what if there had been a somber speech after a great Naval set back in 1941?

How much of this american resolve was cultivated or at least stimulated from above? The american people were isolationist when it comes to the war in Europe, they were probably even less interested in sending american boys to fight for the poor chinese (remember talking Pre-Pearl here).

Having written the above I have now changed my mind. It was not (only) Pearl Harbor that was pivotal, but role of the US government, its goals and policies. We know that Roosevelt was keen on entering the war in Europe, there were also those who were keen on kicking the Japanese out of China and to finish her as a competing (military) power in the Pacific.

Every now and than a nation is ready to flex its power, from the top down, and in 1941/42 the time was (almost) right for the US. Its policies towards Japan was clearly leading to war, the only "surprise" being Pearl Harbor; surprise is parenthesized because regardless of the debate about the attack on Pearl Harbor being known or not, the military were EXPECTING some form of surprise attack by the Japanese.

The great thing of history is that it does teach us - in this case the Russo-Japanese war.

The Japanese Army had prefered an offensive in China, it was the Navy who wanted to strike out in the Pacific. Lured by the rich territories held by weak colonial forces, although on paper the area was relatively well protected.

Japan could wage a total war in 1941/42, whereas the British Commonwealth and the Dutch could not; the french hardly counted for anything. Even America did not hold the Phillipine with a strong enough force.

I can understand that the Japanese government and military at the time were tempted.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>French Indo China - France a defeated colonial<LI>Dutch East Indies - The Netherlands a defeated colonial<LI>British Burma/Malaya/Sumatra - Britain under siege, still on the losing side<LI>China - enduring a civil war<LI>Russia - for the time occupied in the West<LI>America - relatively isolationist population[/list]
The US oil embargo however issued them a simple choice, pull out of China or war. The Japanese finally opted for war.

If Sumatran oil was the prize, than this dictated knocking out Malaya and the Philippines. Since the war in China was being supplied through Burma, it meant occupying that territory as well.

The advance in the South Pacific can only be seen as an attempt to establish a defensive perimeter, since the area offered no other gains at the time.

Oil is the key.

The Army could not have their war in China, since Japan relied on imported raw materials. The US boycot would effectively dry out the Japanese war effort in no time.

So any scenario would have to be the Naval variant, dictating a wide offensive.

Having arrived at this point, I wonder what course of action could have lead to a limited Japanese victory. What could possibly set in motion the required psychological condition for the americans to accept "defeat".

The only one I can think of is knocking out the US in an early major naval engagement, incl. the US Pacific Battlefleet (so no Pearl Harbor). I say limited victory because the Japanese would have to leave much of their occupied territory to appease the americans. At best they might be able to keep some Sumatran oil fields, French Indo China and parts of China (Excl. Mongolia).

However it would need a Naval defeat on the level of Tsu-Shima, the practical annihilation of the US fleet to set this in motion. Looking at the forces on paper for 1941, even with the older US Battleships, I'd say this is highly unlikely. The Battlefleets would be failry equal in quality, the same can be said for the carrier forces (support). There would be some differences in numbers, but these are offset by differences in damage controle, ruggedness etc etc etc.

But on paper the best the Japanese could hope for is probably a minor victory in such a Pacific Jutland, clearly not enough to force any peace on their terms.

They need an early total naval victory to attain the right psychology in America, the acceptance that its better to stop fighting and get back to negociating.

It's important to forget the wartime production. Think about the old navy, the pride, the men. Think of losing said old navy in a set piece battle with most of its men, losing the traditions, the knowledge and the experience.

In short losing you navy.

That's a naval defeat. Compared to this, Pearl was a setback. You can float a Battleship sunk in shallow water, you can replace ships and aircraft lost, but you cannot replace the men that form the core of your (future) navy.

That's the only scenario I can think of which includes the Americans as an adversary.

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Ruy Horta

k5054
06-09-2004, 04:54 PM
Good analysis, but I can't help thinking this would leave the US thinking it was half-time rather than the end of the fight.

RedDeth
06-09-2004, 06:08 PM
after pearl harbor every single able bodied man from 17 to 50 years old tried to join the military. to go kill krauts and japs.

they were a thousand times more patriotic back then than they are now. nothing would hold them back from anything short of the utter destruction of germany and japan. any other thoughts on the subject fail to realize that fact.

no matter if every single ship in the us navy was sunk and we lost every island we would still have a hundred aircraft carriers within 3 years of pearl. america lose its resolve? not in the 1940s . even the isolationists couldnt stop the overwhelming tide of patriotism. these men were all willing to die for what they believed in. not some of em. all of them.

take midway. sink all our ships. it wouldnt have mattered. not when every single red blooded american man woman and child was willing to destroy japan and germany at all costs. our entire country went into food rationing. rubber metal cars EVERYTHING went to the war effort and nothing at all could change anyones mind. ive read many books on the people of the 40s and their stories. its fascinating. people of this age no longer have such resolve. weve all forgotten what it means to fight for your country for freedom and to save the world. they were willing to fight for god and country and the japanese did not frighten americans at all. every ship they sunk just made usa more mad.

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Gunner_361st
06-09-2004, 06:16 PM
I think it'd be practically impossible to crush the American will to fight after Pearl Harbor, had Pearl Harbor been an even bigger tactical success than it actually was.

Many Americans didn't even know where exactly Pearl Harbor was, but that didn't stop a hell of a lot of people from enlisting in the Armed Services the day after.

Major Gunner of the 361st vFG

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Giganoni
06-09-2004, 06:47 PM
Exactly!
America would have won the war no matter the cost!

An easy example is Lea Thompson in Red Dawn. She beat the Russians and the Cubans, why? Because she was American!

Rambo showed us how an M60 really should be only held with one hand, American!

Arnold.....eh, Now an American! Ever seen Predator? He showed that no extra terrestrial was gonna interfere with our plans to interfere with the governments of central american countries!

So WWII, Communism, Aliens..we took em all to town! Now we are the leaders of the Free World!

It does not matter if Japan's late war planes will be Uber in PF, because we can beat them with M1s or P-26s! Give me 147 aircraft and I will defeat Japan!..oh wait, someone else already said that. No one was tougher than us and more willing to sacrifice for their country in WWII! Okay..except maybe Britian, Germany, Russia, Japan, and Finland trumping em all. They cheated though, they had super powers.

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BSS_Goat
06-09-2004, 07:37 PM
Giganomi I'm glad you figured that out http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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Patriotism is your conviction
that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it
--George Bernard Shaw

WUAF_Badsight
06-09-2004, 10:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
after pearl harbor every single able bodied man from 17 to 50 years old tried to join the military. to go kill krauts and japs.

these men were all willing to die for what they believed in. not some of em. all of them.

every single red blooded american man woman and child was willing to destroy japan and germany at all costs.

and nothing at all could change anyones mind. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what about all the concientious objectors

what about all the americans opposed to going to war

hundreds of draft dodgers were locked up

.
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Tater-SW-
06-10-2004, 02:08 AM
Hundreds of objectors. LOL.


Ruy, good points, I tend to agree that it would have taken far more than Pearl to break our will, and even then I'm not sure.

I tend to go with Pearl harbor as the only given for an alternate reality in the pacific. At least at the point of pulling the trigger. The US absolutely expected a war with Japan, and soon. They expected the attack based on sigint and code breaking, but assumed it was gonna be the SWPac and Philipines.

Regardless, I think there was no chance of japanese victory short of maybe the germans quickly reaching the East coast of the Soviet Union. It has nothing to do with rambo or any other ****, it's economics and logistics. The US had more than 10X the economy, and had oil/coal/iron/etc within its boundaries, and the japanese had few resources, and an abysmal system of logistics for moving what they captured home. THAT is why they lost. Logistics. They were great tactically, but were at a total loss in logistics. The japanese army even had it's own navy, they couldn't even cooperate enough to use the navy to move ships.

tater

Giganoni
06-10-2004, 02:58 AM
No, it was still Rambo and Lea Thompson..and Captain America! Hehehe, but maybe the Eastern front would have been slightly different if Japan continued to have victories. As in some less equipment regulated for Lend Lease. All in all very minor impact and Japan could have not likely have taken on the Soviet Union, even in their darkest days against Germany Russia had I believe fourty divisions to counter any Japanese attack on Siberia. Although I love the design of Japanese tanks they would have been totally eclipsed against Russia. No, only Germany could have really changed the outcome of the Eastern Front (like actually a lot more liberating instead of killing.)

I just wonder how PF will handle a Japanese victory at Midway. I suppose we may have to have planes like the Reppu, Bearcat, and Shinden if the campaigns can be extended into 46.

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Stuntie_2
06-10-2004, 05:36 AM
A japanese victory at Midway would not changed things significantly. Pearl was too much of a humiliation for the US to do other than fight to the end.

The US fightback would probably have started somewhere like New Guinea rather than Guadalcanal, and would have been a bit bloodier due to the added Japanese capabilities.

By the time of Midway Germany could be contained by Britain, with whatever help the US could give us until the Pacific was stabalised. So add in all the men and equipment sent to fight in Europe to the Pacific and suddenly the US powerbase grows immensely. More than enough to hold the line until industrys fruits start to arrive.

It was US industry that won it. They so outpaced Japan that by the end of a 1942 with a japanese victory at Midway they would still have been in the same position - so dominant in equipment that Japan would have been relagated to a diminishing defense.

Logistics is as important as tactical victories in winning wars.

Cheers
Stuntie

Stuntie_2
06-10-2004, 05:53 AM
The problem with 'uber planes' is often that flight sim planes don't have the same problems that historical planes had.

Some of these 'uber planes' had chronic reliablity problems - planes in hangers do little more than attract bombs.

Or they had such poor range that they would have had trouble escorting strikes.

Throw in a badly trained pilot and even the most 'uber plane' will soon be nothing more than a kill mark.

Still, it will at least give the Hellcats and Corsairs a run for their money.
Coz I sense a lot of potential 'whines' coming from people who want to fly their own sides 'uber planes' whilst whining that the oposition have 'uber planes' so it's unfair...

Want some fun? - then fly Wildcats again Zeros.
See what it's like in the 'not so uber' world...

jpatrick62
06-10-2004, 11:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stuntie_2:
The problem with 'uber planes' is often that flight sim planes don't have the same problems that historical planes had.

Some of these 'uber planes' had chronic reliablity problems - planes in hangers do little more than attract bombs.

Or they had such poor range that they would have had trouble escorting strikes.

Throw in a badly trained pilot and even the most 'uber plane' will soon be nothing more than a kill mark.

Still, it will at least give the Hellcats and Corsairs a run for their money.
Coz I sense a lot of potential 'whines' coming from people who want to fly their own sides 'uber planes' whilst whining that the oposition have 'uber planes' so it's unfair...

Want some fun? - then fly Wildcats again Zeros.
See what it's like in the 'not so uber' world...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stuntie_2, that's a good point. It's really hard to figure out the impact some of the limited production uber planes of either side would have had in combat since design flaws sometimes don't show up until the plane is mass produced and in combat. For instance, the Seafire should have been an excellent carrier fighter based on its heritage from the Spit. However, the fuselage was weak and not sufficiently strengthened, and this led to chronic airframe problem with the Seafire that wasn't really corrected till after the war. Take the Airacobra, the P39. It had an advanced design, could turn reasonably well and was fast for its time. Unfortunately the supercharger was deemed a weak link and never made it into the production aircraft, making it unable to compete at higher alts with its advesaries. In reality, the performace of any aircraft should be tested relative to its advesaries with common atmospheric conditions to judge relative performace. The US 1944 Interservice fighter conference was one such testing ground as test pilots from all over tested the entries and thus you get a better idfea of the aircraft's potential.

sugaki
06-10-2004, 11:45 AM
There's a couple problems with the notion that taking over Midway would enable Japan to win the war.

First, the Japanese side--while some Naval commanders such as Yamamoto, Genda, Inoue wanted to disable the US fleet to leverage an early settlement with the US, the high brass (namely Tojo Hideki) probably wouldn've stopped until they at least took over Hawaii. Yamamoto hoped to demolish the US fleet at Midway to end the conflict with the US, but top brass would've never stopped there.

Second, the US side--after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, the attack became personal for Americans. With their own country bombed, isolationism instantly vanished, and almost everybody was in support for a war to the end. US would've never settled and allowed Japan to hold the Dutch East Indies.

Then comes the growing technological gap: Even if the IJN taskforce were to sink Enterprise and Yorktown, it would eventually face all the Essex class carriers with F6Fs and F4Us, which were superior to the Zero. Even with its experienced pilots, the Japanese side would eventually falter through attrition and the performance gap between its fragile Zeroes and the rugid Vought/Grumman planes would be amplified.

As for Japan beating Midway leading to quicker production of '46 planes such as the Reppu, unlikely--The Japanese brass were too proud of the Zero to the point where it utterly blinded them. Jiro Horikoshi, the creator of the Reisen repeatedly requested the Zero to be equipped with the reliable 1500 HP Kinsei engine--Japanese top brass rejected the request (even when Zeroes were being rapidly shot down by F6Fs), saying that equipping the Kinsei engine would make the Zero "too powerful." Only when US started to chew out Japanese air groups did the top brass finally come to their senses in 1944/45, but by then it was too late.

As for Americans being less jaded and more patriotic and supportive of war back then compared to now, this is in part due to the fact that media and propaganda was largely controlled by the US government back then, and so coverage of war and politics was more sanitized. The advent of the Internet, the proliferation of TV cameras means that the government can't keep a stranglehold on what gets presented to viewers back home. With Vietnam, the romantization of war and of US being "the good guys" vanished largely due to the extended media coverage that the war effort got.

In the 40s, it was easier to sell the notion that the US was the propagator of freedom and democracy--if they only see one side of the story, why would they doubt it? Globalization and permeation of media changed that dynamic.

Doug_Thompson
06-10-2004, 02:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As for Americans being less jaded and more patriotic and supportive of war back then compared to now, this is in part due to the fact that media and propaganda was largely controlled by the US government back then, and so coverage of war and politics was more sanitized. The advent of the Internet, the proliferation of TV cameras means that the government can't keep a stranglehold on what gets presented to viewers back home. With Vietnam, the romantization of war and of US being "the good guys" vanished largely due to the extended media coverage that the war effort got.

In the 40s, it was easier to sell the notion that the US was the propagator of freedom and democracy--if they only see one side of the story, why would they doubt it? Globalization and permeation of media changed that dynamic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wish that was true. Unfortunately, it's just about all wrong.

1. The U.S. media was kept on a tight leash after Vietnam, especially in recent wars in the Middle East. Correspondents in WWII had much greater freedom, by comparison. News content wasn't dictated so much by getting "good video," either.

2. Millions of U.S. citizens were in uniform during WWII. Hiding the causes and the conduct of the war was simply impossible. Even if letters to home was censored, the soldiers and sailors got out of the armed forces someday and went home. Things aren't like that anymore with an all-volunteer force of professional soldiers, although having guard units over there helps.

3. The U.S. was on the side of freedom and democracy back then. The war was fought for a good cause. Japan was trying to conquer China. The Germans were trying to conquer everywhere else.

This doesn't make the U.S. "holier than thou." Ask American Indians. However, at that particular time in the mid-20th Century, the U.S. did save democracy.

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RedDeth
06-11-2004, 03:20 AM
doug that was the most accurate post ive ever read at ubi.

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Giganoni
06-11-2004, 03:36 AM
Stuntie, it has already been well established in this thread that the sim wont have to deal with a/c reliability problems, etc.

Sugaki, of course all of what you say is common knowledge. Did I say the Japanese winning Midway would make the Reppu? Nope I said if campagins progress into 46 they may have to down the road.

But, with "what if" stuff you still have leeway. So, if the Japanese win Midway..they may be in a better position to last longer in a war of attrition maybe long enough to have some reppus etc. Or it could be the complete opposite that it just furthers their "victory disease" that they even wait longer to develop better planes. I'm sure there are even more choices which is why I am interested in what the developers will do with what is shaping up (on paper) to be a very cool campaign engine.

Oh and in relation to Doug's post. I never understood the argument that US saved democracy. When forced into war (and before with the undemocratic but necessary actions of FDR in the Atlantic, Iceland, etc) the US did defend themselves and helped their allies. Yes, US mostly defeated the Military controled government of Japan. However the Eastern Front was clearly what did in Germany with good contribution by the West of course. So Communism defeats Nazism. I never noticed in WWII America helping to save the democratic government of Finland against Russia (although America never declared war on Finland thanks mainly to Finnish diplomacy). No, Germany was doing that. In the Winter War the people of America were sympathetic to Finland. However in WWII the people of Finland saved their democracy themselves (The only "Axis" power not to be occupied by the Allies post war.).
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[This message was edited by Giganoni on Fri June 11 2004 at 03:17 AM.]

Doug_Thompson
06-11-2004, 08:02 AM
Thanks, RedDeth

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>However the Eastern Front was clearly what did in Germany with good contribution by the West of course. So Communism defeats Nazism. I never noticed in WWII America helping to save the democratic government of Finland against Russia (although America never declared war on Finland thanks mainly to Finnish diplomacy). No, Germany was doing that. In the Winter War the people of America were sympathetic to Finland. However in WWII the people of Finland saved their democracy themselves (The only "Axis" power not to be occupied by the Allies post war.).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Russians saved civilization. America saved Democracy by giving England the tools it needed for survival and helping liberate France.

I'd be happy to continue the debate, if somebody will open an appropriate thread somewhere and not take this one any further off-topic.

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sugaki
06-11-2004, 11:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I wish that was true. Unfortunately, it's just about all wrong.

1. The U.S. media was kept on a tight leash after Vietnam, especially in recent wars in the Middle East. Correspondents in WWII had much greater freedom, by comparison. News content wasn't dictated so much by getting "good video," either.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said US media, I said media. You can easily find coverage of wars on Iraq from Al Jazeera, Guardian, etc. which don't have a pro-war tinge as say US. Videos of US soldier's dead bodies being dragged don't get shown on CSPAN, but they do get shown elsewhere. Same goes with images of "collateral damage" when bombs happen to blow children to bits. War coverage was a lot more santized back then. Back then you had news flashes of "Evil Japs pushed back!" You cheer and say "Go America!" But when you see the human element on TV nowdays of a dead soldier (without the racist rhetoric), be it enemy or ally, you can't be as jubilant about war.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>2. Millions of U.S. citizens were in uniform during WWII. Hiding the causes and the conduct of the war was simply impossible. Even if letters to home was censored, the soldiers and sailors got out of the armed forces someday and went home. Things aren't like that anymore with an all-volunteer force of professional soldiers, although having guard units over there helps.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Soldiers who fight wars and who put their life on the line have nothing to do with the actual causes of the war, your support doesn't follow the original argument. US soldier conduct was better than Japan and Russia without a doubt--but that doesn't mean that the perception of war wasn't sanitized. By sanitized I mean the general horrors of war, of civillians burning, families lost, carcasses strewn across a battlefield.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>3. The U.S. was on the side of freedom and democracy back then. The war was fought for a good cause. Japan was trying to conquer China. The Germans were trying to conquer everywhere else. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that's an overly righteous view of US. I suppose US had intentions of liberating Philipinnes and Guam for freedom with its military presence there? Let's not forget how US forced Japan to open its international doors in the first place when Perry came barging in with its black warships. If anybody started it, it was US and the West's ruthless imperialism. But since the winners write history, we kinda forget of that.

[This message was edited by sugaki on Fri June 11 2004 at 10:30 AM.]

[This message was edited by sugaki on Fri June 11 2004 at 10:34 AM.]

sugaki
06-11-2004, 11:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Giganoni:
Did I say the Japanese winning Midway would make the Reppu? Nope I said if campagins progress into 46 they may have to down the road.

But, with "what if" stuff you still have leeway. So, if the Japanese win Midway..they may be in a better position to last longer in a war of attrition maybe long enough to have some reppus etc. Or it could be the complete opposite that it just furthers their "victory disease" that they even wait longer to develop better planes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Back to a more on-topic response.

Well I suppose I believe the latter then. If Japan won Midway, I think it would've pushed back the production of the Reppu, since the top brass were overly optimistic of the Zero anyway. I mean even after they lost Midway they still had the "Victory disease" and didn't bother to significantly upgrade the Zero. They only started to test a Zero with the Kinsei engine (A6M8) in mid 1945, despite years of getting creamed by the F6F and F4U, and despite Kinsei engines being availble way before then. Even when getting their butts kicked they still were reluctant to change the Zero--if the war effort went decently well they would've kept holding off.

Doug_Thompson
06-11-2004, 09:17 PM
sugaki;

Thousands of our people lay dead in the streets of New York on 9/11, and you have the arrogance and affrontery to say that we know nothing of the horrors of war.

I will respond to your other remarks later, after I've calmed down.

But first, sugaki, I'm going to tell you to go to your precious Internet and find arkansasnews.com. Look up my name, then search the archives. Find the column I wrote earlier this year about Brandon Smith, a U.S. Marine who was killed in Iraq.

The day we got the news that Smith died, I had to go knock on his dad's door and interview him for the story.

Read that, then lecture me about how "insulated" we are from the horrors of war. And when your finished, post your e-mail address so I can send you a copy of the column I wrote more than a year earlier, before the Iraq invasion began, opposing the the war, accusing the president of lying to get his way and arguing that the war was a strategic blunder.

You see, sugaki, you only find what you're looking for on the Internet. You were looking for a big, dumb America led by a corporate news propaganda machine.

Guess what? You found what you were looking for. What a surprize.

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Ruy Horta
06-12-2004, 01:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug_Thompson:
Read that, then lecture me about how "insulated" we are from the horrors of war. And when your finished, post your e-mail address so I can send you a copy of the column I wrote more than a year earlier, before the Iraq invasion began, opposing the the war, accusing the president of lying to get his way and arguing that the war was a strategic blunder.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All well written. It teaches us not to generalize and not to use the forum for our own political ideas. Unfortunately our enthusiasm in debating historical issues sometimes brings us (too) close to the modern day, WW2 still has a legacy.

The painful thing is that often both views are right.

Plenty of modern Americans know the cost or pain of war, by losing their loved ones in war or having participated in the military during those conflicts.

Yesterday I saw a USS Nevada veteran telling his story, dying of stomach cancer he deemed it time to speak up, it brought tears to my eyes. An honest man, a simple man, he certainly knew the pain...

I also remember the father of the first Afro-American to die in last Gulf War, his anger against the President, he knew the price of war...

But apart from the military the United States HAS been isolated from war and **IMHO** not even 9/11 can be equated to true war, the Jihadi attack sharing more similarities with the deranged actions of people like Timothy James McVeigh, in short an act of (extreme) terrorism. The last time America has had to bare the true load of war was during the US Civil War, all the more painful because it was between brothers.

Today America CANNOT lose, its impossible...isolated on its continent, with no natural enemies, massive resources, historical events have created a mentality of complete superiority. The so-called arsenal of democracy is a fortress, like Troy perhaps, that can only fall from within.

Sometimes I miss the days when the world lived in a dangerous balance, the days of M.A.D. and "little" wars on the periphery between the US and the SU.

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Ruy Horta