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View Full Version : Important Ju 88 matter, please comment



Jippo01
04-17-2004, 09:52 AM

Jippo01
04-17-2004, 09:52 AM

ZG77_Lignite
04-17-2004, 10:05 AM
Thanks for the chance to voice an opinion Jippo. Personally I don't need to see the people, my imagination takes care of that.

In the future (BoB?) when/if the crewmen could be made to look/animate reasonably well without discarding other game features (due to CPU limitations) I'd be all for it, but currently I'd rather see those CPU cycles and developement resources go into other areas.

Jippo01
04-17-2004, 10:08 AM
I have no clue what Oleg want's to do in BoB, this poll is just for FB. Of course they don't have so tied hands with BoB as they did with Il-2 so it may be possible to have animated crew there. But as I said I don't know. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

Fornixx
04-17-2004, 10:11 AM
Hi Jippo and thx a lot for your work!

Great work by the way. My vote is to drop the crew. They don't look that good and I't looks kinda goofy with static crewmembers when being a ghost yourself :-)

Reason 1 to drop the crew is that it obscures your beautiful cockpit. I'd rather look at that than crewmembers.

S!

Heavy_Weather
04-17-2004, 10:46 AM
more blood would be nice http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

"The wise man is often the man who plays dumb."

_VR_ScorpionWorm
04-17-2004, 10:55 AM
I agree with Fornixx and Lignite, the crew is not important to me, they just take up space. I like the way it is in the 111, I dont really need to see crew members Im more interested in the way it is built(I love taking the time to admire all work done in a cockpit) than seeing a body just laying there obscouring(sp)view. IMHO, crew will just take up memory. I would rather see them from an outside view(less mem.).

"We went like this, He went like that, I said to Hollywood 'Where'd he go?', Hollywood said, 'Where'd WHO go'-TOPGUN

Jippo01
04-17-2004, 11:01 AM
Crew actually doesn't take any resources from you computer. I made this poll because I will optimise the cockpit for gaming tomorrow, and it is just the matter of having it one way or another. Both options will perform similarly on your machines in the game.

It is just a matter of personal preference. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Crew:
+ realistic bad view.
- instruments and cockpit parts obscured
- standard pilot figures (nothing too pretty?)
- worse view http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Without crew:
+ better view out and to instruments
- ghost ship?


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

_VR_ScorpionWorm
04-17-2004, 11:08 AM
Ohh,....OK http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif(dont know much about comps. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif) I voted no crew anyways. Love seeing cockpits. Does this apply to outsied view as well? Not that it matters because if your strafing a bomber you cant really "see" the crew. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"We went like this, He went like that, I said to Hollywood 'Where'd he go?', Hollywood said, 'Where'd WHO go'-TOPGUN

Zeus-cat
04-17-2004, 11:30 AM
I voted for no crew.

I would like to see Oleg's people concentrate on making bomber's flyable and forget about the gunner positions. Shooting the machine gun can be fun, but it takes a lot of time to model each position and that is time taken away from making the bombers flyable. Give us flyable bombers and let the AI man the waist gunner and tail gunner postions.

Zeus-cat

Jippo01
04-17-2004, 11:31 AM
This only affects inside views, external views will have the crew just as usual.


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

Jippo01
04-17-2004, 11:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zeus-cat:
I voted for no crew.

I would like to see Oleg's people concentrate on making bomber's flyable and forget about the gunner positions. Shooting the machine gun can be fun, but it takes a lot of time to model each position and that is time taken away from making the bombers flyable. Give us flyable bombers and let the AI man the waist gunner and tail gunner postions.

Zeus-cat<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


These are two completely different matters, if you have a look at the files provided you will notice that all positions are already modelled!


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

CHDT
04-17-2004, 11:38 AM
I would hate to fly a ghost plane!

XyZspineZyX
04-17-2004, 12:04 PM
I wouldn't mind having some user selectable switches, dials, levers, etc made available.

You know....a manual start using real switches, etc
Flick a switch to turn cockpit Lx, etc
**** the machine guns when in gunner's position, etc

&lt;hint, hint&gt; http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
04-17-2004, 12:06 PM
sry, didn't realise **** was going to be a rude word.
What I meant was to pull the lever to load the ammo into the chamber.
I thought **** was easier to type.

Fillmore
04-17-2004, 12:08 PM
I vote no crew at all because I sometimes get spooked seeing someone else around in the Heinkel http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

I have the same problem in malls and such with all the mirrors and stuff, I react to reflections and maniquins http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

IIJG69_Padbol
04-17-2004, 01:05 PM
I prefer to see my crew when i'm in a bomber, but I prefer to pilot different planes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If it already done put it in the game, if not just put the plane http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jippo01
04-17-2004, 01:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IIJG69_Padbol:
I prefer to see my crew when i'm in a bomber, but I prefer to pilot different planes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If it already done put it in the game, if not just put the plane http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Both options require the same amount of work, crew has been in for months, but it doesn't take more than five seconds to take it out. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

gombal40
04-17-2004, 01:28 PM
with pain i voted no crew.
It looks a bit like the nose gunner of the he111 i think.
Seems to me a lot of work,

Jippo01
04-17-2004, 01:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gombal40:
with pain i voted no crew.
It looks a bit like the nose gunner of the he111 i think.
Seems to me a lot of work,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alternatives are:

No crew.
Like in nose of He-111. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


And to me and Oleg equal amount of work with both alternatives. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

musickna
04-17-2004, 02:32 PM
Difficult decision because the cockpit is so beautifully done that you really want to just gaze around and look at the detail & instruments. But from a realism point of view, having crew members around is better - that is my vote.

ZG77_Lignite
04-17-2004, 02:59 PM
Well, now that I've jumped the gun and voted 'no crew', I'll switch my verbal vote to including the crew. If it does not require extra work, then by all means I expect it would add some small 'something' to my overall flight experience, even with static models that might be slightly http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif lower quality than say a Doom3 or something. Thanks again for the choices Jippo, if workload for you isn't an issue, then more is better for me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Willey
04-17-2004, 03:21 PM
Really not an easy decision. But I made mine: No crew pls. And I tell you why. First, I thought about it for a while while (http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif) watching those pans (I must admit, the first time I watched pans; I had DLed some already but never watched them http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif). I checked all positions without crew to watch the beautiful cockpit art. Then I watched them again with crew. Initially I thought it would be more realistic with the crew, but as I saw them first, one thing came into my mind: They're kinda ugly. IMHO they screw the beatiful cockpit, not only that they obscure the view, but also that they just don't come up with the standard you made with the cockpit itself. They kinda look like 3 year old graphics in an up to date cockpit. When checking the gunner01 pos, I thought: WTF?? One guy next to me, one behind me, the pilot, one below me... Didn't the Ju-88 just have 4 "members"?? I must be floating in the cockpit as I couldn't really make anything out on which I stand http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif. I rather thought the observer might turn around somehow, or the radist mans both guns at the same time, switching from one to the other. Then I thought about the other planes we have already. Multicrew. Il-2. Can't see anybody because of the armor plates / seat back. He-111. Yeah, the guy laying in the nose. But where the hell are the others?? I can't see anyone in the side stands from the bola, or the other way round. I can't even see the pilot from the observer's position. Next plane: TB-3. I'm not alone. Almost. No copilot, but gunners. And the Bf-110. Can't see back well, but from the gunner's seat I can make out the pilot. But now all those planes share one detail. In none of these those guys, if they're there, are as close as in the Ju-88. And that makes a difference. The gunners in the Tupolev don't bother me, I just see heads and shoulders. The same in Bf-110, in which I hardly take the gunner, and even more rarely I turn my view back to the front via hat switch. And that guy in the Heinkel... Well, I just see his legs. They don't stand out with lower graphical detail like the guys in the Ju-88 pans. So I vote for no crew in the 88.

WWScout
04-17-2004, 03:31 PM
I vote no. But, I'll be VERY HAPPY having the JU 88 either way. Thanks for the great work. S!

Atzebrueck
04-17-2004, 03:48 PM
I voted "no crew" for the same reason Willey described above. The pilot model is not detailed enough to be seen from such a close distance.

Otherwise I would have chosen the version with crew.

Maybe the quality of them can be improved with a very good skin file.

I know you are still working on the model, but nevertheless I want to give a feedback before it's finished http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.
The cockpit itself looks impressive http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif . The textures are absolutely great.
There are only two areas where the skin may be a bit improved, if possible. The beltfeeding and the edge of the shutter (the two-dimensional one). AFAIK they have been one of the first parts of the skin you and your team created. In my opinion they both need a bit more contrast, in case of the shutter a sharper edge and in case of the beltfeeding it would be good if the surface looked a bit more structured and the ammunition less blurred.

I don't know if that is possible with the limited size of skin file, though.

I'm sorry for my nitpicking http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif .


http://c.f.hahne.bei.t-online.de/signatur.jpg (http://www.vow-hq.com)

[This message was edited by Atzebrueck on Sat April 17 2004 at 03:45 PM.]

Black Sheep
04-17-2004, 04:17 PM
Dumb question comming up:

Jippo, does this mean the Ju88 is likely to make it into the summer patch ?

Oh, happy days ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

---------------------------------------------------------
http://mysite.freeserve.com/ilsigs/Spitfire.jpg
---------------------------------------------------------
Per Ardua ad Astra

Airborn_
04-17-2004, 05:55 PM
Just like Willey and Atze I think I would rather not see the view of the interior of the plane being blocked by the crew-members who, although their heads look pretty good, just do not have what it takes to match the quality of the cockpit. Especially around the shoulder-, elbow- and knee-joints they are just not up to par I'm afraid. So although I would also rather see a crew in, I'm afraid this "crew" looks too "wooden-puppet-like" (I was going to say "Pinokkio-like" at first, but I don't want to go and stand on someone's toes too hard and too long.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) So I voted without the crew.

Great job on the Ju-88 interior in any case Jippo and I personally can't wait to fly it!

FW190fan
04-17-2004, 05:56 PM
I voted no crew for reasons already mentioned.

And let me just say that I am profoundly awaiting the Ju88, which is simply one of the coolest a/c ever in all of history period and amen http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
04-17-2004, 06:01 PM
&gt;---&gt; Ju 88 with absolutely unanimated crew

(1) The crew do NOT block much view, if any.

(2) The humanoid grafix does not bother me. They kinda look like the Narn race in Babylon~5, a popular race for Bab5 fans everywhere. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

(3) I like seeing the others with me.

(4) I *always* wanted to see a TB~3 copilot--just though I would mention this--but--apparently Oleg had a Choice::: animate TB~3 copilot controls but at the cost of crew grafix. I also like the animated copilot controls, so I could go either way here.



No matter, I Vote for ---&gt; Ju~88 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Spudkopf
04-17-2004, 06:23 PM
G'day Jippo

Surely the only crew member that panning would effect is the pilot as the other positions are manning the guns and have a very limited field of view (FOV) and then the Observer would be the only crew member close enough to be of any FOV concern. Perhaps the Observer could have more detail added and be reading a map. The radio operated could also be placed in a such a position that it hides the fact he's not doing anything like the belly gunner or the He111 nose gunner.

So I'm voting against the trend as I feel a tad strange flying around in a ghost ship!

Spud

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/langlotz/305%20images/6STG2.gif

p1ngu666
04-17-2004, 06:23 PM
mman that plane is cramped when u got crew. just imagine if someone farted http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif
im going with no crew, if the model of man was better id have probably have voted for that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

Spudkopf
04-17-2004, 07:01 PM
G'day again

It also begs the question, what has been decided for the B25?

Spud

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/langlotz/305%20images/6STG2.gif

XyZspineZyX
04-17-2004, 10:26 PM
Make the onboard crew in/ out an option in set up

DangerForward
04-17-2004, 11:36 PM
I voted no crew because you can't lean forward or move around to see the blocked views like you could in real life. Likewise you can't tell the guy next to you to move his head so you can look out his window, etc...

If the crew did get put it, it wouldn't be a huge deal though.

DangerForward

LEXX_Luthor
04-18-2004, 12:09 AM
Crew does not block any views.



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Red_Storm
04-18-2004, 05:51 AM
I haven't voted yet, but im probably voting against, as the player models look so horrid close up. If they had a better skin I'd vote yes, hands down. It would ofcourse rock if they could be animated too *hint to Oleg*. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

rosaenrico
04-18-2004, 06:18 AM
Hi all,
I voted "no crew", because of the possibility to look around so beautiful cockpits. Besides, from one hand, it may seem an unrealistic advantage having a wide field of view, both external and internal; but from the other hand, in the reality those persons told you what happened where you couldn't view.

|CoB|_Spectre
04-18-2004, 06:56 AM
I vote "no crew". I don't mind flying a ghost ship and I usually bring my imagination along for the ride to keep me company anyway. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Athosd
04-18-2004, 07:22 AM
No crew - as already noted the crew models don't really do justice to such an excellent interior.
However if better crew models were available I'd be in favour of them being included.

Many thanks Jippo - that is one monster piece of work.

Salute

Athos

TooCool_12f
04-18-2004, 07:36 AM
static crew would do fine, I think

in He-111 there's that nose gunner that doesn't move but is visible from the pilot's position... same could be done for the Ju88, no?

Jippo01
04-18-2004, 09:45 AM
Ok.

Opinion of the "crowd" seems pretty clear. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Thanks for votes and good comments. I will not include the crew on the optimised models as you have now decided. If Oleg wants to add some crew he may but I'll as the vote decided.

Thanks all! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

JHAT__
04-18-2004, 10:24 AM
My 2 cents:


It sure would look good with the crew in the cockpit, but animated only. In the pan views it looks good but because the plane isn t moving. If it was, it would look bad... So, although it doesn t look very realistic, i d rather have it without crew. Without it we can also appreciate the beutiful cockpit from all positions http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Nimits
04-18-2004, 03:49 PM
I am surprised against having crew in internal views. They would be sorely missed in a Ju-88.

[This message was edited by Nimits on Sun April 18 2004 at 02:59 PM.]

LEXX_Luthor
04-18-2004, 07:11 PM
jippo first Rule is never make your decisions by pop Vote. If you do you will make bad mistakes 50% of the time by definition of Random Choice. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Go by pop Vote backed up by reasoning...some good reasoning here by both sides though.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Jippo01
04-19-2004, 08:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
jippo first Rule is never make your decisions by pop Vote. If you do you will make bad mistakes 50% of the time by definition of Random Choice. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Go by pop Vote backed up by reasoning...some good reasoning here by both sides though.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for giving me the lesson. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I make my decisions on my own though. Comments and votes affect my decisions, but it is still my call. I was looking for opinions, I got them. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

p1ngu666
04-19-2004, 10:37 AM
imo the dummies arent good enuff tobe viewed closely
calling them dummies cos they like crashtest dummies http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
im really looking forward to the ju88, dont surpose u know its various nicknames do u?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

Snoop_Baron
04-20-2004, 12:24 AM
I downloaded the program and took a look at the diferent files with and without the pilots. I voted for no crew because they are two blocky, wouldn't look right if they are not using the controls, and block out nice parts of the cokcpit that look much better than them.

Wonderfull work btw http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Keep it up!

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

FAFL_Aguirre
04-20-2004, 04:24 AM
Now if the crew were composed of beautiful blondes in skimpy underware then many of us would have voted for!!!!!!
Jippo thanks for all the hard work- I look forward to flying that awesome plane.

Mogster1
04-20-2004, 07:12 AM
I voted for Crew, an empty plane seems really odd to me. How strange would the TB3 look from inside with no gunners?

Close up the figures are angular and blurry though. They spoil the look of the cockpit. Could the co-pilot model be improved? I suppose the co-pilot could always be omitted like in the TB3

MOG

engineerdude
04-20-2004, 07:36 AM
Thanks so much for seeking the community's opinion. I think the crew, which covers up some of the beautifully detailed cockpit, adds another level of realism. External views of the existing aircraft display crew members because its more realistic to actually see someone flying the aircraft.

I recognize this requires additional work but I think it would be a great addition to the game. Papyrus FINALLY added a pit crew to the Nascar sims although they look a bit blocky and EA Sports FINALLY added an animated crowd to the arenas even though they look a bit blocky.

I voted FOR the crews. Keep up the great work. This is the most realistic flight simulation games I have ever played in my 24 years of computing!

AMD 2500 Barton on Abit NF7
512MB PC3200 RAM
64MB Geforce 4 MX 440
KDS 17" Monitor
Saitek X45
Logitech Wingman Formula Force GP Wheel

IKG26Redcoat
04-20-2004, 02:30 PM
Well my vote is for no crew. Its not a vital element to simming as far as Im concerned, whereas a flyable JU88 would be extremely usefull in FB. If it looks right thats fine...if I want to gaze adoringly at fantasticly realistic aircraft, I'll get a flask of tea, some sandwiches, a checkered car blanket and go sit at an airport!! Whatever gets it here sooner..
~S~ all

PE_Sushi
04-21-2004, 01:36 PM
my vote goes to crew displayed

Fehler
04-23-2004, 08:27 PM
After finally getting a chance to look at the positions with and without crew, I have to say that the human figures are just not up to snuff with the rest of the cockpit. They look blocky and detract from the fine cockpits themselves.

My vote goes for "Without Crew."

Jippo, what have you decided?

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html