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XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 06:18 PM
Does the physics engine allow this, or is to complex. i've tried to make it work and i seem to fail miserably. Any help much appreciated.

Thanks /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 06:18 PM
Does the physics engine allow this, or is to complex. i've tried to make it work and i seem to fail miserably. Any help much appreciated.

Thanks /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 06:21 PM
What is Hartmanns escape?

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
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"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 06:21 PM
*Lawn Dart* in game....

Maybe the new Fw190 elevator allows us to fly a Hartmann's escape...but with tha 'rong airplane /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 06:26 PM
Hartmann says: if you have a russian on your tail, turn opposite him and dive-getting as much neg Gs as possible, his reasoning is the pilot will be pushed up weightless and not be able to aim properly.At least thats how I interpret it....

http://www.compsoc.man.ac.uk/~wingman/pics/g50bis_2.jpg

caccia buon!

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XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 06:29 PM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif lol yeah wrong plane. But hey, im sure a little bit of artistic licence is ok. lol

What i don't get though. is what plane of motion your meant to be in. Is it done horizontal or do you bank. how much stick and rudder to apply. its all sooooo confusing /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 06:31 PM
mike_espo wrote:
- Hartmann says: if you have a russian on your tail,
- turn opposite him and dive-getting as much neg Gs as
- possible, his reasoning is the pilot will be pushed
- up weightless and not be able to aim properly.At
- least thats how I interpret it....

I thought it had more to do with how good the 109 could perform in negative g's and when performed, the attacker would not be able to copy the manouver at the same rate, and thus loose him under the cowling.... that's what i always thought it was. could be wrong though

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 07:04 PM
it is possible of course. Especially in all 109s, rather not in FW because of bad rudder response in FB. Just a question of perfect timing....As soon as the enemy on six is in close shooting range (must let him come as close as possible, take off his aim before by sliding around with rudder, what is a dangerous shooting range depends on the weapons, for the russian laser guns i would say about 250 m) but not before ! press your stick down suddenly completely and give max rudder (twist stick) to one side, so you will go down and slide to one side. Its not a defense for a situation where you are already in a turn fight, it is for a fast attacker approaching your six and trying to surprise you (or "saddle up" on you).
Important is: What comes next: Either another few quick flightpath changes and try to disappear (in full real, of course works not with Outside view, padlock or icons).... or a slowing barrel roll to cause an overshoot of the attacker....

Yours,
II/JG54_Zent

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XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 07:28 PM
grutt wrote:

I thought it had more to do with how good the 109
- could perform in negative g's and when performed,
- the attacker would not be able to copy the manouver
- at the same rate, and thus loose him under the
- cowling.... that's what i always thought it was.
- could be wrong though

that too, but it was the neg Gs that hartmann said saved his life on occasions. I quote the master:

"If he opens fire, you push for Neg. Gs down left or right, not forgeting to push the rudder through the maneuver. Your attacker will hang in neg gs in his belt, unable to pull the trigger."

I tried it online, it worked, but it could have been due to a number of things.

Good luck

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XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 10:58 PM
Or dive and escape the early war Yaks/Ratas/chaikkas.. though not possible at FB 1.0, should be possible in FB 1.1

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XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 11:01 PM
I do it all the time to escape a bandit lining up on my 6. You can even do it in an IL-2.

_____________
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XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 11:04 PM
grutt wrote:
- Does the physics engine allow this, or is to
- complex. i've tried to make it work and i seem to
- fail miserably. Any help much appreciated.
-
-

It is possible as I have done it and sometimes I survive/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 11:16 PM
Ohh, that`s what it is...i should read Blond Knight of germany again...
Yes, it is possible on line...i`v seen people doing it , not once...and i do it too. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not.

V!

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
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"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 11:17 PM
I thought it was an outside loop he did, or outside snap roll. I forgot which it was, but I know it was more than just diving.

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XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 11:17 PM
addition:
You can also press the stick in a forward corner (instead of sliding sideways with the rudder) and thus quickly do a kind of negative G-roll into a split-S. Anyway, it sounds simple but is a rather advanced maneuver it seems to me as it takes a very precise timing and some "intuition" of when the guy behind you will start to fire... Doesnt work too well if the pilot behind you approaches you from slightly below...so takes some height approximation too..actually its a kind of surprise trap...in reality it worked much better of course because of the physical negative G, but it works in FB too because of the disappearing out of sight which gives a few precious moments to get the initiative...

II/JG54_Zent

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 05:39 AM
Answer: Yes and it works very well in IL2. I suspect that if you read his discription carefully, you too can "escape" in the same fashion. To quote from Luftwaffe Fighter Aces, by Mike Spick: "Fy quickly straight ahead, and push the rudder so you fly a slight straight-ahead skid that will not be recognized by the attacker. If he opens fire, you push for negative Gs down left or right, not forgetting through the whole maneuver to push the rudder. Your attacker will hang with negative Gs in his belt, unable to pull the trigger. With the maneuver I saved my life several times." Figure 24 in the book is very helpful in illustrating the maneuver. I suggest that you set up a QMB model and try it there first and the QMB model is, I believe the QMB function is available in Forgotten Battles as well.

With respect,
peine27

A sedentary Offliner!

http://mypage.uniserve.ca/~peine27

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 07:41 AM
Great. Thanks guys, looks like i have something to try out online now.... i need any and every trick to get me out of trouble because there's always someone on my six. lol /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 08:15 AM
Sounds like a good trick I'll see if I can do it in my 109 in IL2.

fluke39
07-24-2003, 12:41 PM
hmmm i don't know about you lot but i can't remember levitating out of my seat last time i pulled negative g's in FB ! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 01:19 PM
fluke39 wrote:
- hmmm i don't know about you lot but i can't remember
- levitating out of my seat last time i pulled
- negative g's in FB !

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Surely there has got to be some sort of pulley system around that will allow it.... talk about force feedback. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Tully__
07-24-2003, 02:33 PM
The Hartman escape relied on the other pilot being less experienced (at least in part). There are very few inexperienced pilots in online flight simming, as you don't suffer real death as a result of your mistakes.

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Salut
Tully

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 04:03 PM
lack of imagination !

II/JG54_Zent

fluke39 wrote:
- hmmm i don't know about you lot but i can't remember
- levitating out of my seat last time i pulled
- negative g's in FB ! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- <center><img
- src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flu
- kelogo.jpg>
-

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 04:11 PM
Not really true, first: there are many medium experienced pilots even in HL, i encounter them all the time.
second: if well done its also a good defense against better pilots, if timing is good it works great..it gives you a few moments where the bogey cant see what you do and allows you to initiate a good maneuver which will cost him his superior position in your six..of course, if you think of it as a "standalone" rescue maneuver its not so overwhelming, it depends on what you do next....

II/JG54_Zent

Tully__ wrote:
- The Hartman escape relied on the other pilot being
- less experienced (at least in part). There are very
- few inexperienced pilots in online flight simming,
- as you don't suffer real death as a result of your
- mistakes.
-
- <center>
- ==================================================
- ========================= </center>
-
- <center> <img
- src=http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/Cors
- air.jpg> </center>
-
- <center> <a
- href="http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?
- ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=007540">The "under performing
- planes" thread</a> /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </center>
- <center> <a
- href="http://www.ubi.com/US/Info/TermsOfUse.htm">F
- orum Terms of Use</a> </center>
-
-
- Salut
- Tully
-

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 01:43 AM
I rest my case and do not have an opinion on "online action" ...if you look at the sig and read it...you will know why. I do no think that the "online pilots" in IL2 are any better or...any worse...than those who ACTUALLY flew in this or any other conflict...they only have a higher survial rate, because they have the "Esc" key.
With respect,
peine 27

A sedentary Offliner!

http://mypage.uniserve.ca/~peine27

The_Blue_Devil
07-25-2003, 01:59 AM
It is definately possible..I do it all the time. Thing is it has to be done with enough altitude to avoid ground smacking. The reverse at the end is what will allow you to get a shooting solution on the guy on you. Try giving full rudder during your dive then when the bogey follows..more than likely rolling to keep you above his cowling.. pull up and over him. His plane will still be in the middle of a roll if done right and you can exploit that lapse in time to turn the tables as he comes into your sights after the reverse.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


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XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 05:31 AM
Actually, it is not a really "advanced" maneuver at all.

All those description of "rudder" "direction" and etc are really trifle things - the key to the effectiveness of this maneuver lies at the primordial level: pure physical endurance of the pilot.

As we all know, planes react far more superiorly to inputs resulting in positive Gs, rather than negative, because it was designed that way.

The tolerance of pilots to -Gs, is way lower than +Gs. Naturally, in a moment of danger, most people instinctively react to what their bodies are trained to do . Without really thinking about consequences of their actions, they react in a manner which comes naturally - pull the stick and turn away. Avoiding the uncomfortable negative G status, is instinctive.

Thus, if a pilot consciously and willingly puts himself under -Gs, taking on the consequences of the unpleasant, and even upto painful conditions, it becomes something unexpected for the attacker pursuing him. Abrupt exposure to -Gs will cause, in the worst cases a 'redout' to the pilot, but that means the attacker must experience it also if he tries to match such evasives.

To avoid such conditions, in many cases the attacker rolls inverted to follow the defender's sudden "sinking" motion. But apparently, hitting a target which orientation of the roll axis is 180 degrees counter to yours, is a very very difficult thing to do - even pilots with the best of gunnery get confused as to which point they should lead the gunsight. Also, their concentration is usually set upon staying behind the target, matching the roll axis.

Effectively, it presents an ideal condition to try for an overshoot.

If the attacker is a timid BnZer, he will just pull up again, and the defender effectively dodges an attack without excessive loss of alt or Energy. A momentary "dip" and the danger is over. If the attacker is more aggressive, the defender first engages in a -G push, then abruptly pulls to +G, and then, engages either in a throttled down barrel roll, series of scissoring counter rolls, or just push down to -G again. This is in effect, a scissors situation, except it doesn't go horizontally, nor does it go into a rolling scissors. It's a series of scissors by changing the pitch and alt of the plane - of course, by risking the consequences of a really upset stomach and a headache. Imagine a up-down-up-down-up-... roller coaster course, except the speed is more than three~four times the amount of that a normal roller coaster would travel at. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Since sim pilots never get to feel their stomachs wobbling as they change abruptly from high +Gs to high -Gs and back again, the effectivity of this maneuver is naturally limited in a game. But since the red outs and black outs are visually modelled, it still can be used, and in some situations, it is even favorable.

Actually, it is not a really "advanced" maneuver at all.

All those description of "rudder" "direction" and etc are really trifle things - the key to the effectiveness of this maneuver lies at the primordial level: pure physical endurance of the pilot.

As we all know, planes react far more superiorly to inputs resulting in positive Gs, rather than negative, because it was designed that way.

The tolerance of pilots to -Gs, is way lower than +Gs. Naturally, in a moment of danger, most people instinctively react to what their bodies are trained to do . Without really thinking about consequences of their actions, they react in a manner which comes naturally - pull the stick and turn away. Avoiding the uncomfortable negative G status, is instinctive.

Thus, if a pilot consciously and willingly puts himself under -Gs, taking on the consequences of the unpleasant, and even upto painful conditions, it becomes something unexpected for the attacker pursuing him. Abrupt exposure to -Gs will cause, in the worst cases a 'redout' to the pilot, but that means the attacker must experience it also if he tries to match such evasives.

To avoid such conditions, in many cases the attacker rolls inverted to follow the defender's sudden "sinking" motion. But apparently, hitting a target which orientation of the roll axis is 180 degrees counter to yours, is a very very difficult thing to do - even pilots with the best of gunnery get confused as to which point they should lead the gunsight. Also, their concentration is usually set upon staying behind the target, matching the roll axis.

Effectively, it presents an ideal condition to try for an overshoot.

If the attacker is a timid BnZer, he will just pull up again, and the defender effectively dodges an attack without excessive loss of alt or Energy. A momentary "dip" and the danger is over. If the attacker is more aggressive, the defender first engages in a -G push, then abruptly pulls to +G, and then, engages either in a throttled down barrel roll, series of scissoring counter rolls, or just push down to -G again. This is in effect, a scissors situation, except it doesn't go horizontally, nor does it go into a rolling scissors. It's a series of scissors by changing the pitch and alt of the plane - of course, by risking the consequences of a really upset stomach and a headache. Imagine a up-down-up-down-up-... roller coaster course, except the speed is more than three~four times the amount of that a normal roller coaster would travel at. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Since sim pilots never get to feel their stomachs wobbling as they change abruptly from high +Gs to high -Gs and back again, the effectivity of this maneuver is naturally limited in a game. But since the red outs and black outs are visually modelled, it still can be used, and in some situations, it is even favorable.





-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!Actually, it is not a really "advanced" maneuver at all.

All those description of "rudder" "direction" and etc are really trifle things - the key to the effectiveness of this maneuver lies at the primordial level: pure physical endurance of the pilot.

As we all know, planes react far more superiorly to inputs resulting in positive Gs, rather than negative, because it was designed that way.

The tolerance of pilots to -Gs, is way lower than +Gs. Naturally, in a moment of danger, most people instinctively react to what their bodies are trained to do . Without really thinking about consequences of their actions, they react in a manner which comes naturally - pull the stick and turn away. Avoiding the uncomfortable negative G status, is instinctive.

Thus, if a pilot consciously and willingly puts himself under -Gs, taking on the consequences of the unpleasant, and even upto painful conditions, it becomes something unexpected for the attacker pursuing him. Abrupt exposure to -Gs will cause, in the worst cases a 'redout' to the pilot, but that means the attacker must experience it also if he tries to match such evasives.

To avoid such conditions, in many cases the attacker rolls inverted to follow the defender's sudden "sinking" motion. But apparently, hitting a target which orientation of the roll axis is 180 degrees counter to yours, is a very very difficult thing to do - even pilots with the best of gunnery get confused as to which point they should lead the gunsight. Also, their concentration is usually set upon staying behind the target, matching the roll axis.

Effectively, it presents an ideal condition to try for an overshoot.

If the attacker is a timid BnZer, he will just pull up again, and the defender effectively dodges an attack without excessive loss of alt or Energy. A momentary "dip" and the danger is over. If the attacker is more aggressive, the defender first engages in a -G push, then abruptly pulls to +G, and then, engages either in a throttled down barrel roll, series of scissoring counter rolls, or just push down to -G again. This is in effect, a scissors situation, except it doesn't go horizontally, nor does it go into a rolling scissors. It's a series of scissors by changing the pitch and alt of the plane - of course, by risking the consequences of a really upset stomach and a headache. Imagine a up-down-up-down-up-... roller coaster course, except the speed is more than three~four times the amount of that a normal roller coaster would travel at. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Since sim pilots never get to feel their stomachs wobbling as they change abruptly from high +Gs to high -Gs and back again, the effectivity of this maneuver is naturally limited in a game. But since the red outs and black outs are visually modelled, it still can be used, and in some situations, it is even favorable.





-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!Actually, it is not a really "advanced" maneuver at all.

All those description of "rudder" "direction" and etc are really trifle things - the key to the effectiveness of this maneuver lies at the primordial level: pure physical endurance of the pilot.

As we all know, planes react far more superiorly to inputs resulting in positive Gs, rather than negative, because it was designed that way.

The tolerance of pilots to -Gs, is way lower than +Gs. Naturally, in a moment of danger, most people instinctively react to what their bodies are trained to do . Without really thinking about consequences of their actions, they react in a manner which comes naturally - pull the stick and turn away. Avoiding the uncomfortable negative G status, is instinctive.

Thus, if a pilot consciously and willingly puts himself under -Gs, taking on the consequences of the unpleasant, and even upto painful conditions, it becomes something unexpected for the attacker pursuing him. Abrupt exposure to -Gs will cause, in the worst cases a 'redout' to the pilot, but that means the attacker must experience it also if he tries to match such evasives.

To avoid such conditions, in many cases the attacker rolls inverted to follow the defender's sudden "sinking" motion. But apparently, hitting a target which orientation of the roll axis is 180 degrees counter to yours, is a very very difficult thing to do - even pilots with the best of gunnery get confused as to which point they should lead the gunsight. Also, their concentration is usually set upon staying behind the target, matching the roll axis.

Effectively, it presents an ideal condition to try for an overshoot.

If the attacker is a timid BnZer, he will just pull up again, and the defender effectively dodges an attack without excessive loss of alt or Energy. A momentary "dip" and the danger is over. If the attacker is more aggressive, the defender first engages in a -G push, then abruptly pulls to +G, and then, engages either in a throttled down barrel roll, series of scissoring counter rolls, or just push down to -G again. This is in effect, a scissors situation, except it doesn't go horizontally, nor does it go into a rolling scissors. It's a series of scissors by changing the pitch and alt of the plane - of course, by risking the consequences of a really upset stomach and a headache. Imagine a up-down-up-down-up-... roller coaster course, except the speed is more than three~four times the amount of that a normal roller coaster would travel at. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Since sim pilots never get to feel their stomachs wobbling as they change abruptly from high +Gs to high -Gs and back again, the effectivity of this maneuver is naturally limited in a game. But since the red outs and black outs are visually modelled, it still can be used, and in some situations, it is even favorable.


-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 05:36 AM
Damn, how did I ever manage to do a double post in a single post?


ps) The prerequisite for the maneuver, is more speed than alt. If you have sufficient speed, even a brief push is sufficient enough to cause enough -Gs to feel a red out.

However, without sufficient speed, it can take many seconds before the initial push on the stick enables the plane to pitch down and accelerate high enough to cause -Gs. During those precious seconds, the attacker can immediately recognize your intent, refuse to fall under your ploy, and then prepare a counter punch.



-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

fluke39
07-25-2003, 12:06 PM
Dont you mean a triple post?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

yes how did you do that?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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