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geetarman
08-17-2004, 08:02 AM
It is my understanding after reading a number of wartime accounts (including one well known account, witnessed by about 75 airmen on the ground) that the P-38 Lightning was more than capable of holding its own against a Spitfire, so long as the mock fight was conducted in the vertical plane.

The most famous account in question was a P-38J I believe vs. a Griffon-engined Spit. The US pilot's name was Lowell, I believe. The 38 was able to consistently get a gun solution against the Spit by utilizing energy tactics and maintaining a vertical fight.

Last night I went one-on-one against a Spit IX CW a number of times. Each engagement was at about 2000 meters and we started head-on at equal speeds. It became quickly evident that the in-game 38 does not have a markedly better margin of performance in the vertical.

The Spit seemed to effortlessly roll, loop and retain it's energy much better throughout the fight. I can understand the Spit having a superior horizontal turn ability, but I was amazed at it's overall performance vs. the 38.
The one evident advantage the 38 had was speed.

As someone who doesn't claim to know alot about the tech aspects of these planes, I'm curious if this exercise jibes with the known performance abilities of these planes?

geetarman
08-17-2004, 08:02 AM
It is my understanding after reading a number of wartime accounts (including one well known account, witnessed by about 75 airmen on the ground) that the P-38 Lightning was more than capable of holding its own against a Spitfire, so long as the mock fight was conducted in the vertical plane.

The most famous account in question was a P-38J I believe vs. a Griffon-engined Spit. The US pilot's name was Lowell, I believe. The 38 was able to consistently get a gun solution against the Spit by utilizing energy tactics and maintaining a vertical fight.

Last night I went one-on-one against a Spit IX CW a number of times. Each engagement was at about 2000 meters and we started head-on at equal speeds. It became quickly evident that the in-game 38 does not have a markedly better margin of performance in the vertical.

The Spit seemed to effortlessly roll, loop and retain it's energy much better throughout the fight. I can understand the Spit having a superior horizontal turn ability, but I was amazed at it's overall performance vs. the 38.
The one evident advantage the 38 had was speed.

As someone who doesn't claim to know alot about the tech aspects of these planes, I'm curious if this exercise jibes with the known performance abilities of these planes?

p1ngu666
08-17-2004, 08:14 AM
p38 should dive better, but spit climbs better iirec, and has turn advantage
dunno about acceloration and topspeed is a moot point, your not gonna reach that

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WOLFMondo
08-17-2004, 08:50 AM
I'd bet the pilot in the P38 was a very good one as a griffon spit like an XIV has allot of advantages over the P38J. Remember the XIV has over 400hp more than the IX as well and then theres more pokey fuel grades the XIV used as well depending on its role.

I flew against a P38J yesterday and the way I found to defeat it in a Spit was to do very steep high speed dive and get the P38 to follow then pull up relativly sharply around 700kph which the P38J just can't follow after a dive. I just looped over and came in behind the P38J which was desperatly trying to loose speed to get elevator control back. Your screwed if the P38 pilot doesn't fall for it however. Spiral climbs seem to work well too.

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Red_Storm
08-17-2004, 08:54 AM
I have this one account too about a FW-190D-9 killing two-hundred La-7's in one sortie and apparently it was wintnessed by thousands of people on the ground and this pilot account was really cool. And this one other pilot account says that he could turn with a spitfire in a Dora.

See what I mean?

---

jensenpark
08-17-2004, 09:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
I have this one account too about a FW-190D-9 killing two-hundred La-7's in one sortie and apparently it was wintnessed by thousands of people on the ground and this pilot account was really cool. And this one other pilot account says that he could turn with a spitfire in a Dora.

See what I mean?

---<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was one of those 200 LA7's...boy that 190 driver was good! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

You certainly have a way of getting a point across Red_storm!

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hop2002
08-17-2004, 09:31 AM
It was Lowell.

We only have his perspective of the mock fight, and iirc the RAF pilot he names doesn't seem to have existed (might just have been sparing his blushes) so there's no way we'll get the other perspective on it.

When it comes down to the energy fight, Lowell and the RAF pilot agreed to meet at 5,000ft, iirc. Lowell climbed to about 10,000ft before diving down to 5k, so in his own words at the merge he was doing "about 600 mph"

He had a huge energy advantage going into the fight.

PBNA-Boosher
08-17-2004, 10:03 AM
In a P-38J, if you have to dive for a long distance in combat, kill the engines and barrel roll down.

Boosher
_____________________________
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El Turo
08-17-2004, 10:18 AM
Two words:

Combat. Flaps.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
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Korolov
08-17-2004, 01:08 PM
Getting into a turn fight with a P-38 = bad idea. It can turn pretty good, but that big fighter going around low & slow just makes a big fat mk108 magnent.

http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/klv_sigp38shark1a.jpg

geetarman
08-17-2004, 01:32 PM
Understood. Actually I wasn't horizontally turn fighting with the Spit and I was utilizing combat flaps during portions of the encounter.

Again, I'm not complaining and fly the 38 almost 100% of the time. I just found it a bit strange that, other than speed, a Spit IX appears to have it all over a 38 in this game, which appears to be somewhat contradictory to published accounts.

Maple_Tiger
08-17-2004, 01:42 PM
I can see your point.

Johnson,P-47 pilot, used energy tactics against his opponants. He new his P-47 could hold it's energy better and used that to his advantage.

However, Zoom climb in this game just doesn't seem correct at all.

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Xnomad
08-17-2004, 03:36 PM
Going into the vertical with the P-38 should really mean shallow climbs and dives. In Martin Caidin's "Fork-Tailed Devil" it oftens states that the P-38 shouldn't be flown in steep climbs (against Japanese aircraft) but I find the same goes for online if you get stuck up at the end of your climb you are a huge sitting duck.

With the P-38 online the best tactic is to dive into furballs and just give a squirt at each enemy as he passes you and then climb out again. Or just by bouncing your opponent. Although you can dogfight with 109's and 190's you will lose precious speed and another 190 or 109 will come up and teach you a lesson.

Whenever I see a P-38 L online I think "he's not going to make it home" why? Because he chose the 'L' for the dive brakes so he can turn in dogfights or he's gone mudmoving.

Whenever I see a P-38 J online I think "this guy probably knows what he's doing" why? Because the 'J' is the faster P-38 and that's the way to fly that plane, fast!

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El Turo
08-17-2004, 04:07 PM
I very often will let it all hang out and get my virtual hands dirty fighting with the P38 in the vertical against baddies, and am fairly successful in coming out the victor in many engagements. My choice? I take the "L" for the boosted controls and improved overall response at higher speeds (including the air brake).

With an insane amount of flap-setting manipulation and management you can really bring the nose around pretty well with the P38 and it does VERY nicely in the vertical including slice-backs and YoYo's. You can certainly suprise some folks, that's for sure.

All in all, the P38 is certainly one of the more difficult rides to do well in if you're going to mix it up and throw caution to the wind.

Yeehaw, I say!

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Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
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I thought,
reloading my rifle.

~V.

Resident_Jock
08-17-2004, 04:41 PM
I fly the L model too. Sometimes what I like to do is dive out of a fight at high alt, dragging a German bird with me. When I get to just the right height I pull out the dive brakes and level out at the treetops, watching him yank his wings off or crash into the dirt. That thing can really pull out if you use the brakes! Not only that, but the boosted alerons work wonders at high speed. I usually don't have a problem with the lower speed over the J, because it's rocket-like acceleration compensates.

Another thing is people forget the 38 has two engines. I can snap roll like a stunt plane if I chop the throttle in one engine and roll, using the high torque to spin me faster. Then gun the engine, engage combat flaps and yank the stick around in a high G turn. If you know how to fly it right and use the throttles and flaps cleverly the Krauts have a hard time hitting you.
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MosDef_99th
08-17-2004, 05:32 PM
Wow Resident Jock..tight sig buddy......

Thanks for posting this thread and all this useful P-38 advice. You always gotta know the tricks to fly the American planes in this game. ...And I damn sure need em......

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Homer Simpson: "Ahh the Luftwaffe.....the Washington Generals of the History Channel."

geetarman
08-18-2004, 08:31 AM
The P-38 was known to be able to hang in a dogfight at low alt with the 109 and 190. And yes, I said dogfight, not hit and run, shallow climb away tactics. It was not a sure bet by any means, but, I think you'll find that was the general consensus of the US pilots in the MTO and ETO.

Against Japanese aircraft, the standing order was to keep speed up, maintain elements and hit and run them. Why? The Japanese light fighters could fly rings around a Lightning. Therefore, it would be foolish to use steep climbs as a US pilot. The same should not be said for a mock fight vs. Spitfie IX. That was my only point.

As to the L vs. J issue. A properly flown "L" is a more capable fighter than the J, IMHO. First, I don't notice any measurable speed difference bewteen the two. Second the L has the dive brakes.

Now, they are not the be-all and end-all. But, they do help me to overcome the awful high speed elevator response the 38 has in this game. I can pop the brakes briefly and at least get my nose up faster when an e/a pulls up steep in front of me at high speed.
They also do help you to prevent a lawn dart situation. I never use the brakes for horizontal turning.

Xnomad
08-18-2004, 09:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geetarman:
As to the L vs. J issue. A properly flown "L" is a more capable fighter than the J, IMHO. First, I don't notice any measurable speed difference bewteen the two. Second the L has the dive brakes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure the 'L' is a better dogfighter it's just that quite often the people who take an 'L' use the brakes so much that they are so slow and low that every MK 108 equipped LW plane will have them for breakfast.

It's the same type of people that fly the so called 'easy to fly newbie planes' often you find planes like this online and they are easy kills because the pilot is a beginner, however I'm not saying the 'L' is easy.

If you use the brakes sparingly then the 'L'is better, but sooner or later you will probably just need to flat out run away and then you are better off being in a 'J'.

At low level the P-38 J is almost as fast as a Bf 109 G-10 with his MW 50 enabled. The 'L' is 10 Km/h slower and is more likely to get caught.

So when running away from a Bf 109 you really want to be in a 'J' for that as you will have a much better chance that Jerry will need to back off when he starts to overheat.

If a Fw 190 is on your tail then just out turn him http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif if a Fw 190 and a Bf 109 are on your tail then good luck!

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El Turo
08-18-2004, 10:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you use the brakes sparingly then the 'L'is better, but sooner or later you will probably just need to flat out run away and then you are better off being in a 'J'.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why am I running away when the other guy is punching the "refly" button?

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Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
This place
was once
a place
of worship
I thought,
reloading my rifle.

~V.

WOLFMondo
08-18-2004, 10:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xnomad:
Whenever I see a P-38 L online I think "he's not going to make it home" why? Because he chose the 'L' for the dive brakes so he can turn in dogfights or he's gone mudmoving.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll take the L for the airbrakes but not to turn fight but to quickly level off in a high speed dive when the ground is a bit to close. Its not the best way to fly it but...

I quickly learnt when we first got the P38 that its not a turn fighter by any means.

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ZG77_Nagual
08-18-2004, 10:29 AM
109s are the nemisis of the 38. I think this is because more 109 pilots know what they are doing. And it's true - against a good 109 driver you may be better off in the J - as you are likely to need to extend. I like to push it in the 38s - and get into dogfights. Against a single 190 - generally do pretty good. Likewise ki84s, zeros etc. With the Ki's I think it's a lack of pilot skill as it's a popular noob plane. They just seem to lose it in turns alot. 190s with good team tactics you've got to use your speed and try and get one out of the picture fast. In the J I use trim instead of dive brakes. You crank it going in and are good to go well over 700k. On a '43 server I think the J is better off than the L is on a '44/45 server.

mortoma
08-18-2004, 10:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geetarman:
It is my understanding after reading a number of wartime accounts (including one well known account, witnessed by about 75 airmen on the ground) that the P-38 Lightning was more than capable of holding its own against a Spitfire, so long as the mock fight was conducted in the vertical plane.

The most famous account in question was a P-38J I believe vs. a Griffon-engined Spit. The US pilot's name was Lowell, I believe. The 38 was able to consistently get a gun solution against the Spit by utilizing energy tactics and maintaining a vertical fight.

Last night I went one-on-one against a Spit IX CW a number of times. Each engagement was at about 2000 meters and we started head-on at equal speeds. It became quickly evident that the in-game 38 does not have a markedly better margin of performance in the vertical.

The Spit seemed to effortlessly roll, loop and retain it's energy much better throughout the fight. I can understand the Spit having a superior horizontal turn ability, but I was amazed at it's overall performance vs. the 38.
The one evident advantage the 38 had was speed.

As someone who doesn't claim to know alot about the tech aspects of these planes, I'm curious if this exercise jibes with the known performance abilities of these planes?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is a big problem with FB, the energy differences and nuances of various fighter planes is not right.
Especially in the vertical planes. Fighters that should be weak for holding or building up energy
may be strong or visa versa. Also, in general, there is not much difference from one fighter to another. In real life, there was a vast difference from good energy fighters and poor ones in energy retention and ability to build and develop it. Things like power to weight ratio, overall weight, aerodynamics ( how slippery a plane is ) and airfoil loading are not modelled in FB as well as they could be. All that stuff is important in determining how well planes build up or bleed energy. In FB, the overall margin of difference from one plane to another is not very wide as far as energy. I try to be optimistic, but I don't think that Oleg will ever fix this as the FM engine is not sophisicated enough.

geetarman
08-18-2004, 12:55 PM
I'l take your word for the 10kph difference between the J and L at low alts. I think, in sum, I'd still rather have the "options" with the L. One other other thing about the L. You want to cause an overshoot PDQ? Drop the brakes, throttle back and hit full flaps. The L stops like sportscar! I used it many times in conjunction with a barrel-roll. If I survive the manuever, I can usually pull everything back up, hit the gas and start the pursuit.

Re: the 109's. I used to have trouble with them too, particularly the G2. I find now that it's a pretty even dogfight against the later 109's. With the G2, if I can't get him quickly, I usually extend in a shallow climb as he won't catch me. I don't dogfight them.

I love the FW190, but they are pretty easy to handle in a 38 at low alts in a one-on-one, particularly if he starts turning and bleeding.

The one surprise I've had since the patch has been the TA-152! Something happened in the patch and the thing performs much better at lower alts. Every one I meet in a 38, if flown right, becomes a handful. They used to be toast at low alts pre-patch.

VMF513_Sandman
08-18-2004, 07:17 PM
j's are more forgiving at slow speed vs the L; L's advantage is its dive brake to get out of compressibility and able to carry an extra pair of 50 cal's. the L needs more alt to use for energy, its engines seems to have alot less power vs the j.
the 38's are a very tricky machine to fly well. seems to have alot of secrets it just doesnt want to give up easy. nose mounts should be alot easier to line up deflections with and in this plane it doesnt.

OldMan____
08-18-2004, 07:50 PM
Tricky ..yeas.. but much superior to P47 and P39 if you know how to do it (no P51 is still the king http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif ). it is the only american fighter I like to fly. I simply dont like only he size of plane.. that makes it an easy target. But its behavior for energy fight is perfect. You can lure your oponent in loosing energy while you loose even more than him. But your ability to built up energy is HUGE!! You can recover and leave it to dust!! Flaps also drop much less speed than in other planes.

Also in extreme emergencies it can easily outturn german fighters. Also in shalow dive it is only defeated by the german jets.

For the germans that face good p38 flyers.. keep fast. Or he will outaccelerate you. Take any snapshot you can in this BIG target. And never never try to stay behind a P38 when he is trying o break!!! Just accelerate , dive and take separation.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

Lord-Raptor
08-19-2004, 12:58 PM
Two Words

Spit Rules http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

During the Battle of Britian, Hermann Goering asked Adolf Galland "What do you need to defeat the British?" to which Galland Replied "A Squadron of Spitfires"