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Alexander Kyzminykh
07-14-2004, 02:56 PM
The AI Lagg3 42 serie 35 has to be changed, it has the same speed at seelevel as Me109K and climbs equal to it at 3000m.

I cant find any figures of it in the game but it must be alike the 1943 version.

It together with the I-16 and I-153 and the gladiator does a 180deg turn in a split second like a hammarhead but not sideways, and dives directly down on you just at the fraction of a degree away that you dont can hit him but he can correct the angle when the AI is away from your trajectory and hit you.

Cant it be like that a ace fights smarter than a rookie.
Now he/she fires more agile, it seems as the the hitsector is more narrow and that the aircraft can take more damage, the aircraft can climb longer before stall.
The ace wiggles away from the trajectory in a total unrealistic way.
And the "butterfly in hurricane" movement that it does when you are at its 6 should be taken avay directly.
It cant be right when I can take down Nowotny 10 times out of 10 when I fly a IL2 1941.
Take a good look at the AI-side of the game, its redicoulus.

Alexander Kyzminykh
07-14-2004, 02:56 PM
The AI Lagg3 42 serie 35 has to be changed, it has the same speed at seelevel as Me109K and climbs equal to it at 3000m.

I cant find any figures of it in the game but it must be alike the 1943 version.

It together with the I-16 and I-153 and the gladiator does a 180deg turn in a split second like a hammarhead but not sideways, and dives directly down on you just at the fraction of a degree away that you dont can hit him but he can correct the angle when the AI is away from your trajectory and hit you.

Cant it be like that a ace fights smarter than a rookie.
Now he/she fires more agile, it seems as the the hitsector is more narrow and that the aircraft can take more damage, the aircraft can climb longer before stall.
The ace wiggles away from the trajectory in a total unrealistic way.
And the "butterfly in hurricane" movement that it does when you are at its 6 should be taken avay directly.
It cant be right when I can take down Nowotny 10 times out of 10 when I fly a IL2 1941.
Take a good look at the AI-side of the game, its redicoulus.

Udidtoo
07-14-2004, 03:09 PM
"Butterfly in a Hurrican" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Thats good and an accurate desciption. The AI isn't subject to the same FM as we are offline.

Any plane will exhibit that behavoir low and slow. Try and keep the same speed and manuver with an F2 or F4 some time. When the AI goes "UFO" you just have to retain some energy and extend until you can come around for another pass.

If you try and manuver with them below several hundres feet and at speeds lower than 250 you will just get burnt or stall/crash

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

Chuck_Older
07-14-2004, 03:10 PM
The AI in any complex sim or game is limited in many ways.

One of the most common is that in a simulation, say a racing simulation, the physics model of the AI is neccesarily simpler than that of the player.

This is because to make all the calculations needed for all the AI to have as complex and realistic a physics model as the player, you would need a computer many many times more powerful than we have now.

Consider having 17 computers exactly like yours just so that Il*2:Forgotten battles could use the physics model it provides you with, for 16 AI opponents flying with and against you.

The AI uses a simple physics model, you use a much harder one.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

Weather_Man
07-14-2004, 03:11 PM
http://www.erieshore.ca/wine%20route.jpg

http://banners.wunderground.com/banner/smalltemptr/language/www/US/TX/Dallas.gif

Blutarski2004
07-14-2004, 03:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
The AI uses a simple physics model, you use a much harder one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... and the offline result is that a human player, operating a wonderfully modelled WW2 virtual fighter a/c, is thrust into an fighting environment not much different from Crimson Skies.

Frankly, I've had better offline experiences in EAW, even Red Baron 3D.

BLUTARSKI

Chuck_Older
07-14-2004, 03:23 PM
You mean to say that you have seen better AI.

That's opinion, Bluto. Your personal complaint about the AI doesn't even address the overall quality of the sim.

I cannot recall the AI in say, RBII being much of a challenge at all. I can remember downing dozens of enemies in RBII's version of QMB while flying a Sopwith Pup, with "full real" except for unlimited ammo.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

jeroen_R90S
07-15-2004, 11:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weather_Man:
http://www.erieshore.ca/wine%20route.jpg

http://banners.wunderground.com/banner/smalltemptr/language/www/US/TX/Dallas.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO!

==============================
Ah you LaGG, my lightened LaGG,
why don't you wish to fly?
Over the wild Black Sea water
your cockpit you made me leave.

Brain32
07-15-2004, 11:59 AM
Yes the AI is EXTREMLY annoying!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
We don't need complex AI just return it the way it was BEFORE AEP. AI was never an issue until AEP came out, in last few months I'm pulling my hair out every evening!!!
I can't believe there are almost no comments on AI on this forums, I guess most people hanging around here are online players, but I hope the developers won't forget there are a lot of offliners like me playing this sim for nearly 3 years(since original IL2 came out) and enjoying every moment spent with it! Showing a little interest about our wishes would be really nice...

LEXX_Luthor
07-15-2004, 12:05 PM
Yes, that and offwhine AI is less Wimpy than pilots you fine onwhine http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Bob the Pilot
07-15-2004, 12:15 PM
while i was reinstalling AEP i played FB in QMB... OMG! the AI's damage model was ten times better! what is that all about?

Brain32
07-15-2004, 12:20 PM
That's what I am talking about...

Udidtoo
07-15-2004, 12:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
The AI uses a simple physics model, you use a much harder one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... and the offline result is that a human player, operating a wonderfully modelled WW2 virtual fighter a/c, is thrust into an fighting environment not much different from Crimson Skies.

Frankly, I've had better offline experiences in EAW, even Red Baron 3D.

BLUTARSKI

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


After I read this yesterday I thought hmmm. I ain't ran Crimson Skies since I OC'd.

I would take Blutarski's line of reasoning even one further. At last when you are playing CS offline you have the same magic carpet mated with a flying saucer FM as does the AI.

I have read on here several times that us offline players out number the onliners by a fairly large number. Don't really know if thats so but if it is, it sure isn't reflected much in game.

I find that more and more my mission building and QMB is becoming geared for mud moving. Now if I just had a Tempest to go along with my Lightning & Sturmovik

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

BM357_TinMan
07-15-2004, 12:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weather_Man:
http://www.erieshore.ca/wine%20route.jpg

http://banners.wunderground.com/banner/smalltemptr/language/www/US/TX/Dallas.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was kind of un-needed, Weather_Man.

BM357_TinMan
xo BM357 VFG
www.bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com)

Indianer.
07-15-2004, 01:20 PM
Its an arcade game. The aircraft look like theyve come straight out of a cartoon. I hope PF is better.

http://www.fighter-collection.com/film/img/dark_blue_world.jpg

"Wer auf die preussische Fahne schwort, hat nichts mehr, was ihm selber gehort"

Blutarski2004
07-15-2004, 01:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
You mean to say that you have seen better AI.

That's opinion, Bluto. Your personal complaint about the AI doesn't even address the overall quality of the sim.

I cannot recall the AI in say, RBII being much of a challenge at all. I can remember downing dozens of enemies in RBII's version of QMB while flying a Sopwith Pup, with "full real" except for unlimited ammo.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Indeed it is my opinion, and was never presented as anything other than my opinion.

In my opinion -

The UFO-like nature of AI FM's, which defy the laws of physics, make the offline experience unsatisfying. IMO, EAW was better in this regard.

I find the offline campaign missions repetitive and formulaic. RB3D's dynamic campaign environment was infinitely superior (IMO) to the stock FB campaign package.

Your mileage may, of course, vary.

There are lots of things I like about FB (did I not mention something about "a wonderfully modelled WW2 virtual fighter a/c"?). But the question of the overall quality of the sim is extraneous to the point at hand.

BLUTARSKI

propDrop999
07-16-2004, 07:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Its an arcade game. The aircraft look like theyve come straight out of a cartoon. I hope PF is better.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Uhmmmmm..... I can't begin to say how horribly
at fault this remark is.

The AI is quite remarkable in this game and filled with intricacies and subtleties.
The other night I was tickled to see how the
wings fluttered on an AI Me109 immediately after I washed its rear end with cannon shells - just like a real pilot would if so startled.

I think, however, it has gotten considerably harder as new versions come out, but as I grow with the game it is keeping the challenge alive.
In fact I would argue that the average online pilot now rates somewhere between 'AVERAGE' and
'VETERAN' AI. This makes a few quick QMB sessions a great warmup before online play.

My complaint about AI (and most AI in any computer game) is that it seems to draw to heavily on knowing exactly where you are. I don't know how many times I've just gotten an AI plane in my sights when it veers away, as if the pilot was telepathic, knowing I was just about to blast him. This is an easy trap for AI developers to fall into, because they can and it makes their job easier. Oh well, when I get frustrated with that I go online an delight in sneaking right up on them and blasting away!!!

http://katardat.org/marxuniv/2002-SUWW2/Images/images05-Zelma/stalingrad-zelma-downplane.jpg
Stalingrad 1942

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
... So began the most appalling, devastating and savage conflict in
the history of warfare.

It was conducted on both sides by obsessively ruthless tyrants,
battering one another like a pair of rabid rhinoceroses - with this
difference that they used not their own bodies but those of millions of
men whom, by the exercise of will, they committed to every kind of
suffering, mutilation and death. Until nearly the end of its four
years this fearful contest was remote from the other theatres of war,
so that when it ended its impact on the rest of the world - on those
who were neither Russian nor German - was incommensurate with its
hideous actuality.
</pre>

From the chapter 'Barbarossa', The Penguin History of the Second
World War, Calvocoressi, Wint, Pritchard.

Timberwolf7
07-16-2004, 09:29 PM
He might have been talking about Crimson Skies...just a guess...but I dont really know *shrug*.