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FliegerAas
01-13-2004, 10:47 PM
Yesterday on the Hyperlobby...
Such moments can be frustrating http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .
The La had no Visual damage and could still fly hard maneuvres.
At least it wasn't him who shot me down http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

http://www.metalforum-austria.net/albums/album83/FB401delay.gif

Online unterwegs als "Hundsbube"
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[This message was edited by FliegerAas on Tue January 20 2004 at 08:39 PM.]

FliegerAas
01-13-2004, 10:47 PM
Yesterday on the Hyperlobby...
Such moments can be frustrating http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .
The La had no Visual damage and could still fly hard maneuvres.
At least it wasn't him who shot me down http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

http://www.metalforum-austria.net/albums/album83/FB401delay.gif

Online unterwegs als "Hundsbube"
http://www.metalforum-austria.net/vbb/attachment.php?s=&postid=15243

[This message was edited by FliegerAas on Tue January 20 2004 at 08:39 PM.]

GoodKn1ght
01-13-2004, 11:05 PM
lol good work. now get a track of a yak snapping ur wing off with 2 bullets (mg) and your journey to the darkside will be complete. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

tagert
01-13-2004, 11:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FliegerAas:
Yesterday on the Hyperlobby...
Such moments can be frustrating http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .
The La had no Visual damage and could still fly hard maneuvres.
At least it wasn't him who shot me down http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Looks like you hit the spinning prop and it deflected the round just before it exploded.... what? IT COULD HAPPEN! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

TAGERT

FliegerAas
01-13-2004, 11:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoodKn1ght:
lol good work. now get a track of a yak snapping ur wing off with 2 bullets (mg) and your journey to the darkside will be complete. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, yes.....

May the force be with me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Online unterwegs als "Crapmashine"
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JG14_Josf
01-13-2004, 11:46 PM
Wow what a coincidence!

I just posted in another thread a similar online scenario:

An LA5FN hits my 109K-4 from long range with one or possibly a few hits. How can you tell? I didn't actual see a tracer contact when reviewing the track file.

The LA5FN fires at a range that is from my experience a 100 to 1 shot:
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/in%20range.jpg

Tracers arc in and around the Messerschmitt:
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/arching%20in.jpg

Apparently there is a good reason to fire at this range:
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/good%20shot.jpg

The Mk108 can require a little more persistance:

Hit one:
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/47%201.jpg

Hit two:
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/47%202.jpg

Hit three:
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/47%203.jpg

Hit four:
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/47%204.jpg

Hit five:
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/47%205.jpg

The P-47 did go down after the pilot bailed out.

Sometimes the Mk108 IS a one (or who knows how many) hit wonder weapon:
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/One%20hit%20wonder%20weapon.jpg

ROSHKO_69.GIAP
01-13-2004, 11:54 PM
Nice presentations and nice shooting in the first post !

Your computer thought you hit, and so it shows you that you hit. However due to the inevitable lag in online gaming, your machine was not in sync with the machine of the La driver. In these cases the server determines who is right, and in this case you lost. Even though YOU see the hit - no damage is inflicted on your victim (who probably neither saw nor felt anything, because in his end he wasn't hit).

So it is not the damagemodel of the La5 we see here, it's an online thing that can't be helped much...

C!

Roshko

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_roshko.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

S77th-brooks
01-13-2004, 11:57 PM
can this be really real http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif not more whining lol weres the prove ,these photo,s lie .good shots

FliegerAas
01-14-2004, 12:15 AM
@: ROSHKO_69.GIAP:
That's why I presented this gif with a wink http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif .
The only problem is that this happens a bit too often...
But sometimes it's the exact opposite, then I see my tracers going nowhere but the enemy suddenly loses a wing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

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JG14_Josf
01-14-2004, 12:30 AM
Roshko,

What exactly does the program use to determine when a hit is made?

It does not make much sense to me to have a shooting game use anything but the person shooting as the trigger for hits, otherwise why would there be any need for sights?

Are you saying that the program takes an average between the guy who shoots and the guy who gets shot and splits the difference?

I would really like to know how it is done and along those lines it would be nice if you could point to where you found this information.

If lag is as high as a half second in some cases and if we have to account for lag when shooting deflection then it is a real wonder anyone hits anything.

P.S. Why have tracers if your shots could be going half a second one way or the other?

Rajvosa
01-14-2004, 12:38 AM
Great shooting! Well this happens offline sometimes. I mean, the Mk 108 was supposed to chew a fighter with a single shot, no matter where it hit. The blast was such that wing, tail or whatever would simply fall off after a single shot. I've seen La-7 that had taken 2-3 hits, I saw explosions, and still go on.

Golf GTI Edition 2.0 16v

Cajun76
01-14-2004, 01:54 AM
Be aware, not every bullet and cannon round is visible or has a tracer when fired. Set up a QMB with just about anything, and fire extremely short burts at the ground, or preferably water, and compare your tracers/shots with the impacts. 2-3 or more times the impacts vs. the number of shots you appear to fire.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

Meanwhile, in the 20th century:

BOOM! Yeah, Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my T-Bolt!! It's has 8 .50cals and 2000lbs+ worth of bombs and rockets. Republic's top of the line. You can find this in the Kick A$$ department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Farmingdale, Long Island and Evansville, Indiana. Retails for about $82,997.95. It's got a turbo-supercharger, all metal control surfaces with blunt nosed ailerons, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop smart, shop Republic. YOU GOT THAT!? Now I swear, the next one of you primates, E-ven TOUCHES me..... - Anonymous http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ROSHKO_69.GIAP
01-14-2004, 08:03 AM
Josf:
&gt;What exactly does the program use to determine when a hit is made?

I don't know - I wish I could tell you. I've read some explanations but they escape my memory

&gt;It does not make much sense to me to have a shooting game use anything but the person shooting as the trigger for hits, otherwise why would there be any need for sights?

Well - if my packets take .200 secs to reach the server and your packets take .300 that would give us a timegap of .500 secs (not counting the small delay processing also inflicts). To counter that surely some compromises must be made. I don't think that it is ALWAYs uses the victims position - sometimes it does use the shooters position. How it determines when to use what is beyond my knowledge

&gt; Are you saying that the program takes an average between the guy who shoots and the guy who gets shot and splits the difference?

Nope - I don't know how it works

&gt; I would really like to know how it is done and along those lines it would be nice if you could point to where you found this information.

Hehehe - yeah - I'd really like a link myself. I got this info especially off this and similar boards. My experiences shows me that explanations along those lines fit what I see in the game.

&gt; If lag is as high as a half second in some cases and if we have to account for lag when shooting deflection then it is a real wonder anyone hits anything.

Well - there HAS to be some compromise. No netcode in the world can defeat the fact that often we are seperated +.5 sec (or more) in time.

Sorry to be so void of good hard info... but IMO. the first *.gif depicts a weakness of the net - not a flaw in the La dmg model or the power of the Mk108

&gt; P.S. Why have tracers if your shots could be going half a second one way or the other?

Because if there where no tracers this board would be a boiling mass of protests and complaint threads ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

C!

Roshko

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_roshko.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

FliegerAas
01-14-2004, 08:12 AM
Well, s far as I understand you this is a kind of "referee funktion" of the server for exceptional cases and that this case is not as a rule.
Is this right? Feel free to correct me.

greets!

Online unterwegs als "Crapmashine"
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ElfunkoI
01-14-2004, 08:36 AM
It was my thought that what you see is what you get. So if you collide with another aircraft but on his end he didn't hit (I'm going to guesse server decides), you still get exploded/screwed. Same goes for gunnery. If you register hits on that enemy aircraft, they won't simply dissappear because the server thinks lag is unfair. Then comes people with "Well I was in my turn and he was shooting behind me", dats right, he was shooting behind you at where he saw you and he hit you and you died and it doesn't give you a handicap for lag. This games netcode as I've seen is generally very good where a collision destroy both a/c and what they shoot at is where you are, not much lag.

JG26Red
01-14-2004, 09:31 AM
its the new CHEAT! the force field Cheat!! lol... i have seen this before, in a 190A9 behind a P51 pulled trigger only for the 2 wing cannons, and about 3-5 rounds hit the plane and he just rolled away, i didnt follow as i was amazed, i switched to outside view to see him and he had no marks at all, he said he was never hit... i know my pc is kinda old and seems to warp alot, but WOW... i was withing .1-.2 and he was straight level, didnt see me i suppose... LAG LAG LAG, i love it...

Future-
01-14-2004, 10:40 AM
Well, since I always fly the ai B-17 G , I always see where I get hit and by what.

There have been several cases when my Fortress was struck by a direct double missile hit, or about 5 - 6 Mk108 rounds.
In both cases, only minor to no damage was inflicted.
In other occassions, I get hit by 1 well-placed (lucky?) Mk108 round and my wing falls off.

And before someone states that server-lag-example again, in every example I gave here both the attacker and I saw the same hits at the same spots.

Previously, many concluded that the B-17 is overmodelled in ternms of durability, but now that such cases also turned up on various fighters, it seems clear now that the "damage calculation" in FB either not always works correctly, or there's a hidden game subroutine that now and then adds some sort of "fate-decides" option - remember guys, back in WW 2, not every gun round and not every plane was like the other.
You could have (for example) 2 262s build at the same day by the same guys witht he same material, and still one flys perfectly while the other one suffers from occasional malfunctions.
Even today these things can be found... 2 products that are totally identical to eachother perform slightly different.

Maybe we just discovered a side of FB we weren't aware of - think of it:
Sometimes ai gunners are killers, sometimes they are useless.
Sometimes a plane can take tremendous amounts of damage, sometimes it gets blown up at the first hit.
Sometimes your plane gets hit by dozens of rounds and your crew barely gets scratched, sometimes they die like insects smashing against a fast car.
Sometimes the aaa fires a lot and misses most of the time, sometimes you get shot down by one of the first dozen blasts.

Sounds like FB not only calculates the "hard facts", but also simulates one of the things that makes real life interesting - the fact that even if you do something for the 100th time the same way you did it 99 times before, you really can't tell for sure if it will have the same effect as it had MOST of the times before.

Gentlemen, please think about this perspective and tell me if I have a point or if I'm nuts - seriously please.

S!

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

GoodKn1ght
01-14-2004, 11:00 AM
not to be a troll, but you are nuts. Randomness is not a good thing, for me it shows flaw in the programming. For a game, consistency is important.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

Future-
01-14-2004, 12:36 PM
There ya go. "for a game"

Previously, many people claimed they see FB as a simulation, and not only a game.
Many also stated they want things to be as realistic as possible.

So, if every plane, every ai crew, every shot fire, every bit of damage taken would always be exactly the same, would it be realistic?

Let's take another example. The 262's engines overheat and catch fire if they are powered up to fast after ignition. I recently talked to an aircraft engineer, and he told me this is realistic, and explained the details to me (my english is too bad to give this explanation now).
Of course, it can be frustrating sometimes if you quickly need to scramble and set your engines on fire cause you powered them up a lil too fast.
For a game, this should be removed. For a game, only thing that matters is that your vehicle performs optimal as long as it doesnt get shot or crashed.
But for a simulation, simulating this overheat issue is quite important - you have to learn how to deal with such things.

Now, while I agree that BASICALLY every plane should be like it's sister, and every event should BASICALLY have a predictable outcome (simple example: I crash, I die), I think some randomization can't hurt as it would reflect another part of reality quite well.

And you know that most of the time, the Mk108 does work quite well, and most of the time the ai gunners miss or only hit the fuselage somewhere.

But from time to time, things are different.
You have to agree at least on that, unless you can prove that every day in your life you are EXACTLY the same, do the same things with EXACTLY the same outcome.

S!

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

JG14_Josf
01-14-2004, 12:47 PM
In the absence of factual evidence we are left with conjecture.

Websters: (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary)
"b : a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork"

My guess is that the shooters computer generates the trigger for hit calculations.

Why?

Lag is a huge variable.

Imagine how hard it would be to shoot at a target that could be anywhere within a range of half a second ahead or behind it's actual possition.

Imagine a tracking shot where the shooting plane targets the right wing root. The shooter places just the right amount of lead and fires a continuous stream of bullets just ahead of the target. The relative distance and possition of both planes is kept constant.

How many meters can the two planes move relative to each other as a result of .5 seconds of lag?

300kph

5 kilometers a minute

.08 kilometers a second

80 meters a second or 40 meters in half a second, right?

40 meters doesn't seem so bad eh?

A 109 is about 10 meters long.

So the shooter is trying to hit a target that can be anywhere within 4 plane lengths ahead or behind where the shooter thinks he can hit the target.

Suppose the shooter shoots at the target but the shooters computer shows that the tracers are going ahead of the target.

If lag is factored into calculating the hit then the shooter may actually be hitting the target even though he is being shown that the target is not being hit.

Perhaps the target is actually 30 meters behind where the shooter's computer displays the target, and it is a perfect guns solution.

The shooter adjusts his shot because he thinks the shot missed.

Has anyone ever seen a kill message for a plane that they missed?

I have not.

Imagine please; if the shooter is shown a tracking shot where he is hitting the target but lag is such that the calculation does not trigger damage. How does the shooter know how to judge lead when what his computer shows as the correct lead is in fact not correct? The shooter's chance of hitting the target is left to an occurance of just how much lag exists between his computer and the computer belonging to the person piloting the plane being shot. The actual hit probability is subjected to this random value of lag that can place the target anywhere in a range of 6 plane lengths.
6 plane lengths may not seem like a large amount of error. But if the actual target location is not know by the shooter, if the target could be anywhere in this 6 plane length area then what are the chances for hitting the target?

What about those long range shots?

It is hard enough to hit a target that can be seen. How hard would it be if the target could be anywhere in a 60 meter general area?

Worst of all, however, is if lag were calculated to determine if hits are made then the shooter is being shown that his aim is true and therefore will not be inclined to adjust his technique to a more effective method.

The real good shots would then be the ones who cover the whole 60 meter area. The good shots would be the ones who just happen to be lucky with lag. There would be little corelation between aim and score.

Collisions illuminate the reasoning for shooter priority hit calculations. For gunner calculations the computer doing the shooting should trigger a hit calculation for both the shooter and the target, because, as explained above; lag is a random factor that would spoil effective aiming.

The problems associated with demanding that the shooting computer holds priority over the target computer for gunnery does not show up in the collision modeling.

The problem in gunnery is that the target computer has the short end of the stick when lag is calculated in gunnery.

This problem is not necessary for collision modeling.

The target computer will be hit in gunnery calculations even if lag is so great that the target is far from showing a hit on the target computer.

On the other hand if lag is so great that one computer calculates a collision but the other computer does not calculate a collision then there is no good reason to penalize the computer that does not calculate a collision.

Am I right?

Who knows?

I suspect I am right about gunnery calculations.

I suspect that regardless of what happens on the target computer the computer that does the shooting will determine if a hit is made in gunnery. Any effects of lag are suffered by the target computer. The target computer may not see a hit but if the shooting computer does see a hit then a hit is made.

If I am wrong then I think these boards would have already been flooded with accounts of people connnected on teamspeak demanding something to be done about a horrible travesty of justice.

The game is all about shooting. Defenders beware.






How could it be possible to hit specific parts of a plane let alone actually hit a plane if the target could be anywhere within a 40 meter area?

Korolov
01-14-2004, 01:00 PM
And then a quad of 20mms really kick butt. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/gunfire1a.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg

GoodKn1ght
01-14-2004, 01:11 PM
did i type "game"? i meant to write "flight simulater oriented toward realism."
sorry for the confusion.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

zjulik
01-14-2004, 01:19 PM
Not to spoil anything here but what is that 1,5mb file? An animated gif? I think it has managed to clog the whole server it is on.
If it is a stillpic, you need to study image compression before posting again.
BTW I am on a 1mb/s line...

If you wait until the last minute to do something, it will only take a minute to do it!

blabla0001
01-14-2004, 01:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoodKn1ght:
did i type "game"? i meant to write "flight simulater oriented toward realism."
sorry for the confusion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sarcasm doesn't fly well over the internet

VW-IceFire
01-14-2004, 01:59 PM
The very fact that this game has an element of randomness helps create those wow situations that you often find yourself in.

I agree that its annoying to have your 109's wing shot off at long range...but honestly how often does that happen? How often do you get similarly lucky (perhaps not at range) with a MK108 landing a single hit that not only damages the La-5 or La-7 but that your enemy infact explodes outright leaving nothing left. As far as the P-47 goes...I generally give it a average of 3 MK108 hits before I expect it to go down. Its a REALLY tough bird and I would expect it to behave as such...the same goes for the IL-2 and a few other tough birds in the game.

What I see is that something doesn't quite hold up to expectations...and we all have expectations but online play, coupled with lag, coupled with an expectation unfufilled, and the usual perception argument that we always have it seems to me that nothing is dreadfully wrong. The internet is still a very imperfect beast...an old game (FreeSpace 2) had so many online netcode problems that massive quantities of damage would not even be recorded...I think we're lucky the game is as consistent as it is.

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/spit-sig.jpg

GoodKn1ght
01-14-2004, 02:33 PM
who said i was being sarcastic?

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

blabla0001
01-14-2004, 02:39 PM
lol.

How sad.

FliegerAas
01-14-2004, 02:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zjulik:
Not to spoil anything here but what is that 1,5mb file? An animated gif? I think it has managed to clog the whole server it is on.
If it is a stillpic, you need to study image compression before posting again.
BTW I am on a 1mb/s line...

If you wait until the last minute to do something, it will only take a minute to do it!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are indeed server problems, but they have nothing to do with my pic ( I know the Webmaster of the Server and just talked to him).

Like the title says: It is an animated gif (38 animation steps, 360*270 pixels, saved optimized for 28,8kbps)

Be sure, I know about image compression http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Online unterwegs als "Crapmashine"
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[This message was edited by FliegerAas on Wed January 14 2004 at 01:57 PM.]

ElfunkoI
01-14-2004, 02:52 PM
Randomness. LOL. Sounds like a conspiracy theory much more complex than the actual problem. Doesn't it seem most of the time the most obviouse answer is the right one. I think you guys are taking shots in the dark.

Future-
01-14-2004, 03:01 PM
I haven't even loaded my gun...

All I'm doing is stating an interesting theory, backed by some undeniable evidence.

S!

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

pinche_bolillo
01-14-2004, 06:15 PM
it has to be some type of lag issue. I have noticed that sometimes I can hit la 7s for example several times, and it shows the large mk 108 explosions, the la 7 is badly damaged but is still flyable. sometimes after I hit it with one mk 108 the la 7 shows only slight damage, like small black specks on the wing, similar to small caliber mg fire. during the entire game all a/c will seem impervious to mk 108 gunfire, not just la 7s. I can hit a/c with several mk 108 rds and the only reason I get the kill is because his plane was so unflyable that he crashed it trying to land. then I enter my next game, and boom everything I hit with the 108 goes up in smoke and is vaporized.

TX-Bomblast
01-14-2004, 06:19 PM
From what I see it will always be a game, someday, someone (oleg) will care and make it a simulation.

TX-Bomblast
Red3

TX-Bomblast
01-14-2004, 06:20 PM
Double post....sorry.

[This message was edited by TX-Bomblast on Wed January 14 2004 at 08:03 PM.]

tagert
01-14-2004, 06:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TX-Bomblast:
From what I see it will always be a game, someday, someone (Oleg) will care enough to make it into a simulation.

TX-Bomblast
Red3<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TX-Bomblast:
From what I see it will always be a game, someday, someone (Oleg) will care enough to make it into a simulation.

TX-Bomblast
Red3<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.focusers.com/

and

http://www.friendswhostutter.org/

TAGERT

TX-Bomblast
01-14-2004, 09:05 PM
People........we have a comedian here.....It's TAGERT....yippy....

tagert
01-14-2004, 09:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TX-Bomblast:
People........we have a comedian here.....It's TAGERT....yippy....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What can I say... It's a gift of mine!

TAGERT

AFJ_Locust
01-15-2004, 01:10 AM
Happens all the time, It normaly takes 3 to 5 mk108 shells to destroy la7

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200458.jpg
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200474.jpg

ElfunkoI
01-15-2004, 07:32 AM
I think a more reasonable explanation for the problem with the Mk108's is that we see the hit animation but what really happens is the round glances off a wing (high angle shot), fuselage, etc. Granted, a dead 6 shot into the center of an aircraft from 150 meters should penetrate then explode (and have very bad things happen), is that what we are seeing here?

Maybe angle's, KE, thickness of target armor to penetrate, etc. all play factors. A 90* angle shot should be the best, and I've taken a yaks wing off witha 20mm mgff/m cannon round like this (not an everyday occurance).

Anyway, back to lag and randomness. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JG14_Josf
01-15-2004, 08:43 AM
Bullets do bounce or rickochet in IL2/FB.
This feature does not record on track files.
At first I thought the visual effect of bullets bouncing off an IL2 was intead a rocket going off on the IL2 being targeted.
But when closing in at full zoom during the QMB practice session I could see the rounds impacting behind the cockpit of the IL2 and then they bounced off!

The Mk108 bouncing off feature and exploding outside the plane theory doesn't hold up well.

Many shots that don't work are planform shots.

Like this one:
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/51%20that%20got%20away.jpg

The Lag theory is rediculous IMO.

Has anyone ever recieved credit for a kill after missing the target?

If not; how is the lag factor supposed to work?

If the only time a hit is made is if both computers happen to be in sync with lag and they both see the same hit then hitting targets would happen as often as collisions where both planes collide.

If the target computer does add a factor of possition in determining if a hit is made then a half second or 30 meter difference at 300kph in relative possition could result in the target being hit on his computer but on the shooters computer the target is missed.

Lag exists, it is a factor that creates gaps in relative possition. This must be accounted for in the program. Lag is allowed to be ignored as far as collisions are concerned when one player maneuvers his plane to hit another plane and this hit occurs on his computer; when lag is such that the player that is being hit is not in a possition to be hit on his computer then the program allows the player who did not maneuver his plane into a possition to be hit or in fact manevuered his plane so as not to be hit then there is no logical reason why the collisions should be made on both computers.
This is not the same as gunnery programing.
If the same allowance was made for players trying not to be hit by gunfire as it is for players trying not to be rammed in collisions then hitting targets with gunfire would occur as fequently as two plane collisions.

It would be nearly impossible to hit a target with deflection shooting if the target computer added a factor of lag to the actual possition the target plane required for the shooter to hit it, and this factor of lag and relative possition would not even be known to the shooter.

In other words how could the target be hit if the shooter doesn't even know where to aim?

All my experience on-line with someone hooked up with voice coms is such that when the shooter does see a hit then the hit is made on the target's computer regardless of what the player being hit is seeing.

"How did that happen" is a typical response of a targeted player that has suffered the effects of lag and the neccessary allowance the program makes for lag in favor of the person doing the shooting.

FliegerAas
01-15-2004, 08:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
Bullets do bounce or rickochet in IL2/FB.
This feature does not record on track files.
At first I thought the visual effect of bullets bouncing off an IL2 was intead a rocket going off on the IL2 being targeted.
But when closing in at full zoom during the QMB practice session I could see the rounds impacting behind the cockpit of the IL2 and then they bounced off!

The Mk108 bouncing off feature and exploding outside the plane theory doesn't hold up well.
(...)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, the HE shells the MK108 fires explode on contact. As far as I know they had no Zerleger (a fuse that allows the projectile to penetrate the hull and explode within the strukture).

Another thing I saw Online Yesterday was...funny (and obviously caused by lag): I hit a P40 with a single MK108 and some 13mm shells and it flew on without visible damage for about one or two seconds, then (while turning in for another pass) I saw him exploding http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (there where no other planes in this area ).
There are also moments I miss my enemy when he suddenly goes down... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif .

Online unterwegs als "Crapmashine"
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JG14_Josf
01-15-2004, 09:40 AM
FliegerAas wrote:

"There are also moments I miss my enemy when he suddenly goes down"

How may moments?

Are there any other examples of a missed shot downing an enemy plane?

Is it possible the plane was hit by someone else?

If a plane can be shot down in IL2/FB on-line when the shooting plane misses the shot then my whole concept of gunnery requires adjustment.

Wider convergence settings would be more effective to cover more possible areas that the target may actually be hidding in the lag cloud.
It would be important to shoot much earlier in case the plane being shot at was actaully much further ahead than visually represented.
It would also be important to keep firing much later so as to increase the chance of hitting the target if the factor of lag could cause the target to be much further behind the possition shown on my computer.
I need also to consider the idea that a constant yawing maneuver while firing may increase the chances of hitting the ghost target just in case the target is trying to deflect my aim by changing his vector but because of lag I cannot see this maneuvering yet.

I am not going to change my gunnery technique just yet. It is important to identify more examples of cases where a player shoots and misses a target yet the target is shot down by the shooter.

Anyone?

Track files?

If the program does allow misses on the shooters computer to hit targets then my efforts to increase gunnery hit percentage is all wrong.

I have been trying to shoot only when the target is certain to be hit on my computer screen.


FliegerAas wrote:

"Yes, the HE shells the MK108 fires explode on contact. As far as I know they had no Zerleger (a fuse that allows the projectile to penetrate the hull and explode within the strukture)."

The above statement could also use some clarification. What type of fuse did the MK108 HE rounds employ?

Future-
01-15-2004, 10:13 AM
Well, I recently had such a "lag-kill" experience.
I was flying my B-17 and got attacked by a 109 with Mk108 gunpods.
I was looking at the attacker when he was firing, and I did some evasive action.
Then the weirdness started:
He fired at me with his mgs first, but missed as I did a slight break to the right. To further save my left wing he was obviously targetting, I immediately turned left again and brought the wing down.
Then, suddenly, my left wing broke off and engine #1 was on fire... and AFTER seeing my wing breaking off, he fired a cannon salvo right at the spot where my wing was before it broke off. Of course, that salvo didn't hit anything from my point of view.

To repeat my experience in short: 109 comes in - fires mgs - misses - my left wing breaks off - 109 fires cannons and misses.

When I told the attacker what I saw, he stated he fired his cannons and directly hit the left wing, causing it to break off.

So between his and my machine there was a time difference of about 0.5 - 1 second.


I agree, there are several weird things sometimes happening due to lag - but more often, I tend to believe that a certain "randomization" takes place, as I pointed out earlier. Why are you guys ignoring this theory? After all, it's quite reasonable.

S!

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

JG14_Josf
01-15-2004, 11:42 AM
Future-,

Any theory is going to remain in the condition of speculation utill such time as the facts become known.

I agree and support the theory that a calculation of randomness is coded in the program and there may also be a threshold number of hits per damage area that cannot be exeeded.
For example:
one hit in area x may or may not effect this area according to random factor y
3 hits in area x will always destroy area x

How knows?

Lag should be suffered by the target as the example B-17 having his wing shot off by the 109.

There is no logical way IMO to code the game so the shooter's computer accounts for lag.

If this is done where the shooter's computer is not able to target and hit what he is shown on his computer then aiming would have little purpose.

The guy defending against being hit must suffer the conseqences of lag. My experience is such that this is true in the game just as the example posted by Future-.
Defensive maneuvering is best done with little regard for the attackers maneuvering.
For instance: it is not a good idea to do as many historical examples of fighter pilots suggest; to wait untill the attacker pulls lead before making a defensive maneuver. If you wait in simulated on-line air combat for the attacker to pull lead you will more often than not be dead. The attacker may look like he is not pulling lead on your computer but on his computer he has you sighted in.

Again this is how it must be for gunnery IMO.

For collisions the program is able to allow the defensive computer the ability to avoid the collision. The defensive computer in a collision can report back to the computer that has made a collision and deny the event. In effect the defensive computer says sorry dude it is OK for you to collide with me since it is done on your computer but since I have avoided the collision on my computer no such event is going to happen to me.

If the same consideration was made for gunnery as it is made for collisions then there would be as many cases of missed shots as there are cases of one damaged plane per collision, and misses shots would not be effected off-line.

Like this off line adventure with all guns fired from a 109 firing machine guns and a 108 cannon:

One obvious hit with 30mm HE round:
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/First%20hit.jpg

Two ovious hits with 30mm:
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Second%20Hit.jpg

Three total and now two hits on right wing with 30mm:
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Third%20Hit.jpg

Four 30mm hits on one LA5 all hits from close range all hits are planform 90 degree no chance of bouncing off type shots:
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Fourth%20Hit.jpg

The fifth 30mm hit was more than even the LA5 could standhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Fifth%20Hit%202.jpg

S77th-brooks
01-15-2004, 02:03 PM
nice work, http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WUAF_Toad
01-15-2004, 02:18 PM
Getting shot at by high pinging bandits is frustrating because they're shooting at your trailing "shadow", and I feel this is almost a cheat/exploit. Back to topic, I do agree with most people that MK108's effectiveness seems to be inconsistent. I'm eagerly waiting for the KI 1C's 30mm cannons. Hopefully those things won't disappoint.

FliegerAas
01-15-2004, 02:27 PM
Future's experience he mentioned above would also explain my shoot-miss-kill experience.
@JG14_Josf: I try to find a track file and make a gif or I send it. Problem is my time is limited at the momnent and my online Track files are 30-45mins average.
To the question about the fuse the MK108 shells used: I did a little research but was not able to find serious articles. Also the statements about which ammo types the gun used vary.

I would be happy about every information I can get.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Online unterwegs als "Crapmashine"
http://www.metalforum-austria.net/vbb/attachment.php?s=&postid=15243

[This message was edited by FliegerAas on Thu January 15 2004 at 03:52 PM.]

JG14_Josf
01-15-2004, 04:53 PM
WUAF_Toad's experience illuminates an interesting factor.
I too have had much trouble with one guy who has a high ping. You cannot avoid these guys. Who knows where they are and they can shoot you down.
So, how can someone with such a high ping possibly be able to hit anything if the lag of his targets is factored into the trigger for a shot?
The perspective of someone being shot down by another player with high lag is like being shot down by a phantom, so if you can't see the lagging shooter how on earth can the shooter be shooting at the real possition of his targets?
Guys with over 500ms or more pings can have half a mile distance between where they see the target and where the target see's the shooter. Even if the allowace was half the distance then the program would place the actual target hundreds of meters away from where the shooter thinks the target is actually fying.

FliegerAas,

It would be great to have a link to more information on those Mk108 rounds if and when you find the time to get them, thanks.

The example of the B-17 is a target perspective which is the opposite example of a your shooter's perspective.
Lag does exist and must be a factor in the game. I just can't see how they can factor it in any other way than from the targets perspective.

However, I just reviewed one of my latest track files where I hit a P-51 with 3 good 20mm hits. The 51 showed smoke but continued to be aggressive. It overshot and lost me and then crashed. There was no score awarded to me despite the hits shown on my end.

Here is a recorded example of hits being made on the shooters computer that appear not to have been counted by the program. The hits were at least not counted for scoring. Scoring however is known to be buggy.

I have yet to find anymore examples of shooters that miss and targets that get shot down from the shooters misses.

This may show up soon with diligent recording and reviewing.

pinche_bolillo
01-15-2004, 05:20 PM
this happened to me a lot at janes ww 2 fighters. I flew that game on dial up (42,666kbs) while most people had atleast some type of dsl. they always complained that I was nearly impossible to shoot down. "my bullets go right through you" was a common complaint. on the other hand I did not have too much trouble shooting them down. sometimes they would tell me how my a/c was swimming around in the ground 10 miles away yet we were all above 10,000 ft and I could still shoot them down. lag is indeed a strange unpredictable feature of online games.

I too have experienced shooting at a plane in fb and then a few seconds later (5-10 seconds) it says I killed him and his plane falls apart. its not common for me, but it does happen. also I have thought that I successfuly avoided an enemy a/c only to register damage after he passed me.

my most recent experience was last night. myself and a wingman had a single enemy a/c cornered and I was back up. the enemy a/c was lagging badly. I could see my wingman knocking off small pieces of the plane, but no major damage was registering on the enemy a/c. so after my wingman over shoot and pulled up I went in to try my luck. just as I was ready to fire the enemy a/c shed its wing and it said that my wingman had shot him down. now the enemy a/c was not pulling any type of maneouver when it shed its wing. that rules out that my wingman damaged the enemy a/c so badly that when he pulled some g's it caused the wing to fail. the way it looked to me was lag caught up with the enemy a/c and the damage was rendered atleast 5 seconds after my wingman broke off. both my wingman and myself had a connection of less than 60 ms to the host while the enemy a/c had a ping of 384 (sticks in my head) it was high 300s to say the least anyway.

JG14_Josf
01-15-2004, 08:46 PM
I don't know anything about Janes ww 2 fighters, but in the on-line air combat games I have played I have yet to see an instance where the shots I fired that were clearly missing the aircraft fired upon did in fact shoot down the plane.

There is an obvious time interval when lag is great and the shooting computer sends the damage information to the target computer through the host and then the target computer must confirm the hit back to the shooting computer. This is different from a situation where the target computer clearly misses a target but the target computer triggers a hit due to lag.

Notice the time interval between the time the target was clearly hit and the time the damage was done and then ask, please, how could it be even remotely possible to hit the target if the target determines if the hit is made?
Imagine if you had to shoot; not in the place you see the target on your computer but instead where the target was going to be by the time your bullets are shown on his computer?

S77th-brooks
01-15-2004, 09:00 PM
500 ping is 1/2 a sec and 385 is about 1/3 sec ,so 385 ping should not give 5 sec delay

pinche_bolillo
01-16-2004, 02:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S77th-brooks:
500 ping is 1/2 a sec and 385 is about 1/3 sec ,so 385 ping should not give 5 sec delay<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

im guessing this was in reference to my post. after my wingman shot he pulled up to go around for another pass. while he was pulling up the enemy a/c then took the damage. it was quite a few seconds after he shot. why do people find this so hard to believe it happens? the person flying the enemy a/c could have experienced a large game pause.........oh why do I even bother. right..........no issues with game pauses and lag. you squeeze the trigger and boom the rounds instantly hit everytime.

blabla0001
01-16-2004, 02:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S77th-brooks:
500 ping is 1/2 a sec and 385 is about 1/3 sec ,so 385 ping should not give 5 sec delay<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If both players have a 500+ ping then the delay is already 1+ second, then there is package loss and the server system who has to process all the data from all players regarding their movements, weapons fire, damage, etc.
There there is the fact that many people may have a broadband connection but most have a bad upload speed, resulting in delays in the data send to them by the server.

ElfunkoI
01-16-2004, 07:57 AM
Que?? Every server I play on my ping is at or below 125ms. And then all other players are right around there too. Still see the same crap. These hypotheticals are way out there, think we can bring them a little closer to reality?

blabla0001
01-16-2004, 08:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElfunkoI:
Que?? Every server I play on my ping is at or below 125ms. And then all other players are right around there too. Still see the same crap. These hypotheticals are way out there, think we can bring them a little closer to reality?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like I said, it's not only PING that has a factor in it.
PING and PACKET LOSS are 2 different things.

Future-
01-16-2004, 08:22 AM
Besides, even if pings are stable around 120 - 210, one can observe warping and lag problems as well.
Once things start messing up the ping and making it unstable, you're in big trouble anyway.

S!

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

Copperhead310th
01-16-2004, 08:31 AM
WHAT PROGRAM ARE YOU GUYS USING TO MAKE THOSE ANIMATED GIFS? i WANT IT! WHERE CAN I GET IT? sOME SEND ME A PM 7 HOOK ME UP. PLEASE! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://imageshack.us/files/380th%20siggy.jpg

JG27_Dacripler
01-16-2004, 08:54 AM
I use the 108 in nose cannons when I fly the 109 g6-AS. and found it at times is quite astonishing how it will vaporize aircraft at whim. Other times it flat out is strange how it "appears" to hit the target explode without any affect on the aircraft. Consistancy is generally expected in each particular round from a simple 12.5mm upwards to a Mk108. However, as we play the game the effectiveness have different results for each and every situation which holds truth in a "real world" environment. If the aircraft is still flying keep firing until it no longer airworthy. Ironic that a 108 round will explode with authority but a single machine gun actually takes off the wing? Deal with the situation and not the assumed. To me it makes the game more intresting and keeps that certain feeling of the unknown.

Snoop_Baron
01-16-2004, 09:20 AM
I wonder if the poor balistics of the MK108 in a way making the lag more of an issue. I've seen planes take "to many shots" from other weapons, including .50s and 20mils.

Snoop_Baron
01-16-2004, 09:23 AM
Oh and packetloss can often be a much bigger issue than ping.

The other thing is that ping can sometimes be "unsteady" that is it fluctuates rapidly.

If you get the same behavior offline then I would rule out the net code. But I've played other online games were everyone had the same vehicles and once in a while you would see people taking tons of damage. Lag and packetloss is known to cause these sorts of issues. Usualy the simplest explanation is correct.

FliegerAas
01-16-2004, 10:21 AM
@JG14_Josf: Here's a link to a MK108 ammo page. Not too much information, but when I find out more I post the links.
The site is french, the sketches of the different Mine shells are mostly labelled in German.

http://www.munavia-21.org/docMK108vrac.htm

@Copperhead: The program used to make the gif was Adobe ImageReady 7.

Online unterwegs als "Crapmashine"
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JG14_Josf
01-16-2004, 10:32 AM
pinche_bolillo wrote:

"why do people find this so hard to believe it happens?"

I have now on a track file an example of a plane being shot at where moments later the damage is shown. The interval between the hits being shown and the damage being shown is obvious, and it appears to be caused by lag or an interval of time between when my computer determines a hit was made and the time it takes for the target computer to confirm the hit.

One question being discussed here in this topic concerns the effects of lag on weapon damage effectiveness.

Some people seem to be convinced that lag is responsible for the inconsistant nature of weapon damage effectiveness.

This idea lacks evidence to support it.

On the other hand there is evidence to support a radom factor calculated in the program, or zones in the damage modeling that cannot be harmed.

Here is a picture of a Zeke taking a 37mm hit in the right wing. This hit was taken on the target computer; my computer.

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Zeke.jpg


How can this be explained away as lag?

In the track file the Zeke shows a huge ball of orange flame right in the center of the right wing. The Zeke did not show any signs of damage neither visually nor as flight control damage. The hit was shown on the target computer (who knows if it was shown on the shooters comptuer?) and no damage was done. If lag was a factor then why would the target computer show a hit but not be damaged, why, if the program calculates lag into the trigger for a hit, would the program show the hit and not do the damage? The program already has all the time it needs to factor lag once the information of a hit has traveled from the shooters computer to the targets computer. Why then would the computer program show a hit on the target computer but not do any damage?

It does not figure that in this case lag is a factor. If the shooting computer missed the target yet the target computer was in the bullet stream and did register a hit then where is the damage? If the shooting computer is required to confirm a miss then why show the hit in the first place?

If the program does have a random factor for hit damage then how does the program determine which weapons have what radom damage factor.

I have many examples of MK108 hits that do no damage in the short time this subject has inspired me to record such examples. I already have one example of a 37mm round that does no damage and it is not very often I get shot at with 37mm rounds. I have many examples of 20mm rounds that show no damage.

Somehow the program may factor lag into the hit equation but there exists no proof of this possiblilty. What is certain, based upon the zeke experience shown is that the program does show hits that do no damage.

Why?

A 37mm high explosive round impacting a light aircraft wing should damage it.


FliegerAas,

Thanks for the link

S77th-brooks
01-16-2004, 12:43 PM
good points josf

Fehler
01-16-2004, 12:59 PM
I have posted many times in the past about the way the game gives credit or rewards those with less connection.

Most other on-line games reward those with better connection. Games like counterstrike, etc., the whole key to success is having a great connection.

This is not the case with IL2. I dont know why it is, but it gets very frustrating to say the least. That's why I try to fly with people of like connection. If I find myself on a server with lots of laggy people, I usually quit. (The laggy guys alawys seem to find me)

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

blabla0001
01-16-2004, 01:10 PM
Ask yourself this Josf, does it happen more online then offline?

For me the damage weirdness happens online waaaaaay more then offline.

Offline I wax nearly every plane in one pass, while online it doesn't happen that much, and I hit the planes just as I do offline.

The biggest factor is packet loss if you ask me.

Your system records a hit and sends it to the server, the server sends it to the system of the person you hit.
You may not realize it but online gaming is a lot a data traffic and a good upload is what you need for that, especially for the server or the one who is hosting.
I have seen people host games with 12 people in them on a cable or a ADSL lite internet connection.
Most of these providers have a crappy upload of 16Kbyte per second and usually results in an effective transfer of 12Kbyte per second.

When I first got my cable it ruled because there was no tranfer limit because there where hardly anyone on because it was relatively new.
Back then DSL was just popping it's head up in the digital world with a staggering effective transfer rate of 35 Down/35Up Kbyte per second.
Most Cable companies at that time where already closing the max bandwith for it's users because their numbers where growing but I was lucky.
I still ruled with my famous hyper server and my server was always packed with people.
At that time my effective trasfer rate on my cable was around 960Kbyte per second download and 160Kbyte upload.
Life on the net was good in those days, I downloaded my @$$ off and enjoyed many many games with people all over the world as a game host.
But then I got an Email that they where going to cut the tranfer rates because the network was not going to hold this anymore so my hosting times where gone, was stuck with a 160Kbyte download and 16Kbyte upload according to the mail.

Right now I ditched my cable and got me a nice 1024Kbyte download and 128Kbyte upload connection so I can host games again with out people complaining about packet loss.

IL2 does not show it but the game I played back then did, it showed ping and packet loss and while the ping was low the packet loss wasn't always so and rules where made when the packet loss was above 4% the squadwar mission was cancelled and a new host had to be found.
If the defending party (defender had host advantage) could not come up with a better host and the attacking party had a better one the match was hosted by the attacker or a new appointment had to be made and play the game on a dedicated server.

The reason why a match was cancelled due to packet loss was because the client players where unable to damage other players with laser fire, only missiles did damage but also not as effective while the host was dominating and killing the enemy all by himself without any problem.

So bottom line is, in online gaming upload is a HUGE factor.

blabla0001
01-16-2004, 01:43 PM
Oh and here at the bottom of this page are a 2 of my MK108 kills.

http://www.cappadocian.demon.nl/IL2.html

The first LA5FN exploded into a ball of fire and it went so fast that even at 1/4 speed I failed the catch the actual explosion.

JG14_Josf
01-16-2004, 02:59 PM
Ask yourself this Josf, does it happen more online then offline?

I can and do practice off-line as much as I play on-line and there is no significant difference in damage consistancy. I could not say with any certainty which is more consistant off-line or on-line damage consistancy. That would have to be something determined through carefull accounting.

Since I've started recording events the off-line examples of 108 cannon rounds that do no obvious damage are about equal to the on-line examples of 108 cannon rounds that do no obvious damage.

Take this topic for example: The P-47 series is on-line while the LA5 series is off-line.

I do not post any examples of damage that occurs as one would think it should when a high explosive round contacts a flying machine made of wood and or aluminum. These examples of damage modeling must occur, of course, otherwise the simulation would be called IL2 Sturmovik "The dry run" or something to that effect.

The topic title includes: "MK108 Blues"

Something happens to some of the cannon rounds that show up as a hit but do no damage.

This happens off-line, on-line, on the shooters end on-line, on the targets end on-line, with 108 cannons, and with 37mm cannons.

Why?

Some people think it is due to lag.

That may or may not be the case with the on-line examples that occur on the shooters end of things.

Lag does not effect the off-line examples and in my oppion it does not effect the on-line examples where the target computer shows the explosion such as my Zeke example. I was able to fly around as if nothing happened to the Zeke after a direct hit to my right wing from a 37mm high explosive round.

I think the guy shooting at me experienced the 37mm blues.

I could be wrong.

blabla0001
01-16-2004, 05:34 PM
Offline I have very little problems when it comes to damage effects, especially with the 20mm and up cannons.

Some planes have parts that cannot be shot off or crucially damaged like the inner part of the main wings or the tail section behind the cockpit of the FW190's, only the tip of the tail can be shot off.
So I don't aim for these parts anymore.

As for the P-47 being able to soak up a lot of MK108 chells in offline play, it may be me but I have no problems with the P-47's regarding this.

The last one of the 3 P-47's lost it's tail section after one hit btw.

http://www.cappadocian.demon.nl///IL2screen21.jpg

http://www.cappadocian.demon.nl///IL2screen22.jpg

http://www.cappadocian.demon.nl///IL2screen23.jpg

http://www.cappadocian.demon.nl///IL2screen24.jpg

http://www.cappadocian.demon.nl///IL2screen25.jpg

http://www.cappadocian.demon.nl///IL2screen26.jpg

http://www.cappadocian.demon.nl///IL2screen27.jpg

http://www.cappadocian.demon.nl///IL2screen28.jpg

JG14_Josf
01-16-2004, 07:13 PM
I'll wait until this thread reaches another page or not at all, to post my next series of photos showing an LA5 taking at least 8 20mm cannon rounds in the right wing alone that does not show any damage, and then an obvious one pass high deflection from an LA5 that missed from my perspective that causes my plane to emit the black smoke and blackens my forward armor glass.


This page has gotten way too big with the: "The 108 cannons work off-line on my computer pictures" Who ever said they don't work?

If someone has a running example of the IL2/FB program that consistantly causes damage from each hit then they must have a different version of the game than mine.

P.S. If the game does actually have areas that cannot be damaged then that may simply be the whole problem. That reamins to be proven.
I will keep an eye out for an FW190 that shows damage behind the cockpit and or wing roots. Since I choose those planes often it shouldn't take too long for that hypothesis to prove out one way or the other.

[This message was edited by JG14_Josf on Fri January 16 2004 at 06:21 PM.]

ElfunkoI
01-16-2004, 11:54 PM
Packet loss? This would cause a lag spike. I'm under the impression your "ping" is a measure of how fast and consistant you are sending packets to the server who in turn sends them to other players who sends them to server and back to you. Greatgreen I get 25ms. 25!! What packet loss?? If packets are being lost the enemy would lag warp all over the sky, it would be obviouse to say the least.

blabla0001
01-17-2004, 03:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElfunkoI:
Packet loss? This would cause a lag spike. I'm under the impression your "ping" is a measure of how fast and consistant you are sending packets to the server who in turn sends them to other players who sends them to server and back to you. Greatgreen I get 25ms. 25!! What packet loss?? If packets are being lost the enemy would lag warp all over the sky, it would be obviouse to say the least.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Packet loss is something T O T A L L Y different and it's not R E L A T E D to ping.

Ping can be good but you can still have packet loss.
Packet loss does N O T show any lag spike at all.

Do you even know what packet loss is?

Because I get the feeling you have no idea at all.

blabla0001
01-17-2004, 03:09 AM
"If the game does actually have areas that cannot be damaged then that may simply be the whole problem. That reamins to be proven"

Don't tell me you haven't noticed this already?

And you have been testing so many planes and guns and you have not noticed this already.

Remains to be proven?

It's so obvious that some parts cannot be damaged that it nearly bites you in the @$$.

JG14_Josf
01-17-2004, 09:45 AM
Cappadocian_317,

If you would please; let me know exactly which parts are indestructable.

I made one simple test so far from the FMB selecting an FW190 (Blue) and a LA5 (Blue) I shot the inner wing root of the FW190 with the 20mm guns on the LA5. The wing came off the FW190 instantly.

I can test any part of any plane in this manner to find an indestructable part, but it would be good to start the testing with some, if not all, of your "known" indestructable parts.

I would have also tested the area behind the FW190 cockpit, however it seems neccessary after the first test with the wing root to clarify the exact area "known" to be indestructable.

I do not know of any areas that are indestructable yet. My level of ignorance often surprises me too.

P.S. If you crop and then reduce image size to about 400 pixels square the page showing the image won't require horizontal scroll bars and less memory will be required at the hosting storage device.

ElfunkoI
01-17-2004, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cappadocian_317:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElfunkoI:
Packet loss? This would cause a lag spike. I'm under the impression your "ping" is a measure of how fast and consistant you are sending packets to the server who in turn sends them to other players who sends them to server and back to you. Greatgreen I get 25ms. 25!! What packet loss?? If packets are being lost the enemy would lag warp all over the sky, it would be obviouse to say the least.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Packet loss is something T O T A L L Y different and it's not R E L A T E D to ping.

Ping can be good but you can still have packet loss.
Packet loss does N O T show any lag spike at all.

Do you even know what packet loss is?

Because I get the feeling you have no idea at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya, I have an idea. I used to play WWIIOL where theres a moving line of dots representing packets to and from the server. If your connection was hosed and you had even so-so connection you would expierence "lag spikes", or crap would zip around everywhere, cause for a while you didn't get the packets saying whos where doing what in what attitude. Your theory is that we are losing just the packets related to hits/damage and none other. My theory is people with good connection play good ping games and don't expierence packet loss at all. And when you do join a crap connection game what happens? Lag spikes. Why? Packet loss. Si?

VMF-214_HaVoK
01-17-2004, 10:19 AM
I really like when my P-47 loses it controls or sustains fuel leaks from Russian lasers at 1100 meters http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://www.aviation-history.com/vought/98027.jpg

TX-Bomblast
01-17-2004, 10:29 AM
Think you guys may like this......

http://www.luft46.com/armament/mk108.html

Looking at the specs...do you really buy all the BS on the russian lasers now??

blabla0001
01-17-2004, 10:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElfunkoI:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cappadocian_317:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElfunkoI:
Packet loss? This would cause a lag spike. I'm under the impression your "ping" is a measure of how fast and consistant you are sending packets to the server who in turn sends them to other players who sends them to server and back to you. Greatgreen I get 25ms. 25!! What packet loss?? If packets are being lost the enemy would lag warp all over the sky, it would be obviouse to say the least.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Packet loss is something T O T A L L Y different and it's not R E L A T E D to ping.

Ping can be good but you can still have packet loss.
Packet loss does N O T show any lag spike at all.

Do you even know what packet loss is?

Because I get the feeling you have no idea at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya, I have an idea. I used to play WWIIOL where theres a moving line of dots representing packets to and from the server. If your connection was hosed and you had even so-so connection you would expierence "lag spikes", or crap would zip around everywhere, cause for a while you didn't get the packets saying whos where doing what in what attitude. Your theory is that we are losing _just_ the packets related to hits/damage and none other. My theory is people with good connection play good ping games and don't expierence packet loss at all. And when you do join a crap connection game what happens? Lag spikes. Why? Packet loss. Si?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Different game, different engine. different code.
When someone lags uit he is jumping around in IL2.
Why is the DM so different online then offline?

Why do I need to poor more rounds into a target online then offline to destroy it?

I see no plane jumping around when when I start shooting it sometimes takes a few seconds before it looses a wing or the tail section.
During this procedure the plane does not jump and there is no lag spike but it still takes time before things break off or catch fire or explode even.

So, the logical conclusion I can draw is that the weapons fire and damage is send seperate from the flight data.

No lag spikes, no jumping planes but delays in the actual damage done and you need more ammo to do destroy things.

But I would like to hear what you actually think about why damage done is so different online then offline.

JG14_Josf
01-17-2004, 11:01 AM
Cappadocian_317 wrote:

"But I would like to hear what you actually think about why damage done is so different online then offline."


Damage may not be so different between offline and on-line. What makes you think this is true?

Perhaps the guys you are shooting at on-line are just better at evading than the A.I. can ever be off-line.

blabla0001
01-17-2004, 11:16 AM
Sure Josf, it makes perfect sense that the guys online are better at evading, that's why it takes some time after you stop shooting that they loose a wing or burst into flames.

http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/phillips/spock.gif
I see no logic in the statement that better evading causes delays after the actual damage is done.

JG14_Josf
01-17-2004, 12:09 PM
Cappadocian_317,

Seriously, it would be nice to identify two things at this time.

1. Does lag effect damage consistancy?

2. Are parts of some planes indestructible?


The first question has little to do with the delay experienced between shooting and seeing the damage done. The damage is done. Lag creates the interval between seeing the shot and then seeing the damage done by the shot. The shot still causes damage.

The shooter may or may not see hits due to lag. And this may be a factor in any perception that on-line gunnery is more difficult than off-line gunnery. Somtimes the shooter is shooting at the target but the target does not for whatever reason return a confirmation that hits were recorded on the targets computer. These denied shots (as far as my experience goes and can be shown with track file examples) don't show up as hits.
In other words the shooter does not see the orange ball of flame if the target does not confirm a hit.
No visible hits = no visible damage = makes perferct sense.
The discussion here (shown in the first post on this topic) concerns obvious hits with little or no damage done, in other words; inconsistant damage.
Visible hits = no visible damage = ?
It may be a good idea to clarify my opinion on inconsistant damage. My opinion is that inconsistant damage is an accurate representation of what is described in historical accounts of WWII Air Combat.

I can imagine that the real pilots may have been discussing this very topic among themselves.

Hans may have said to Otto:

"It was impossible! The P-39 took a direct hit in the nose and kept on flying as if nothing happened!"

My interest is inspired by how often these hard to believe events occur and what in the game causes them. Are they coded into the game on purpose or is a problem caused by hardware and or software limitations.

This topic can uncover usable information.

I am learning to expect less from those 108 rounds, and I am learning that if one is to decrease the incidence of getting shot down it is important to avoid any enemy fire, at any range.

The game is anything but predictable, as is the situation described in historical accounts.

If it is determined that Lag is responsible for shots that show up as hits but do no damage then this knowledge will effect the way I play the game. I can adjust my gunnery in such a manner as to account for this fact.

If it is determined that certain parts of certain planes cannot be damaged then this understanding will also drive the development of my gunnery techniques.

Adjusting my flying and or shooting according to half baked theories or vauge unsubstantiated ideas concerning the games programing does not sound like a good idea to me.

blabla0001
01-17-2004, 03:00 PM
Planes always loose the same parts, it's just how the damaged aircraft model had been designed.
Some planes loose the entire main wing while others loose just a part of the main wing.
This is always the same.

Some planes loose the entire tail section while others only loose the tip of the tail or only half the tail, this too, is always the same.

When you hit these planes and you hit the parts that don't come off and if inside the hull of that part is nothing vital like a fuel tank nothing happens, you see the hits but you see no damage what so ever.

JG14_Josf
01-17-2004, 08:39 PM
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/goes%20through.jpg

I found the spot that does not take damage on the FW shown above.

Cannon rounds passing through this area do not show up as explosions or in other words this area does not trigger the cannon fuse of any cannon rounds from a Yak or LA5.

Damage occurs to the ground on the other side of the plane.

Below shows how the area further forward does trigger the cannon fuses:
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/fused.jpg

And the damage done may be accumulative as the second fused cannon round caused massive damage:
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/acumulative.jpg

As the rounds passing through the FW are moved further back; fusing occurs and in this case the tail separated from the fuselage after the second orange ball of flame
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/tail.jpg

This blank or non-area on the FW does not explain why, in some cases, a high explosive round will be shown to the shooter or even to the target yet no damage is shown. This blank area does not cause cannon round to show as those obvious orange balls of flame.

Doing the tests for the pictures above was very entertaining. Sometimes the plane being fired at would pivot on the tail wheel and roll down the hill http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

tttiger
01-18-2004, 01:19 AM
A lot of you guys must be new to online flying.

This is about an optical (or electronic) illusion.

You'll find lag in every online flight sim and, quite frankly, it's much worse in most others. Lag is a very minor problem in FB, IMHO.

In massively multiplayers sims (or games if you are of the Arcade persuasion) such as WarBirds or Aces High that use a huge server that can become overloaded, what you see when you are looking at another plane can be where that aircraft actually was one or two or three seconds ago. It's a bother, but it affects everyone equally because it's coming from the server.

Lag isn't nearly that bad in FB. I suppose that's why it isn't as obvious when it is happening.

With lag, it appears your bullets are hitting the target when, in fact, the target is ahead of that point. It doesn't matter what you see (and your computer may show damage), it matters what the target's damage model perceives. Yes, the server is the arbiter and it is listening to what the target is telling it, not the shooter.

To me, the ability to fly and fight on line is truly amazing. If it isn't as smooth as flying off line, that's to be expected. Those signals are going clear around the world faster than you can blink your eye.

Funny the Allied pilots have the same problems but don't bellyache about it. It's always the LW pilots.

Gets very tiresome.

Aloha,

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

[This message was edited by tttiger on Sun January 18 2004 at 01:49 AM.]

JG14_Josf
01-19-2004, 01:51 PM
tttiger wrote:

"Gets very tiresome."

When I get tired I take a nap.


How can this statement be correct?

"It doesn't matter what you see (and your computer may show damage), it matters what the target's damage model perceives."

If it didn't matter what the shooter saw then how could he aim?

Gunnery requires that the shooter can see what is being shot.

How does the program factor lag?

If the only thing determining hit damage was the information on the targets computer then how would anyone hit anyone else, luck?
If the target could actually be anywhere within a half second area then the business of aiming would be a very rough guessing game.

I understand that I may be wrong in thinking that the shooting computer determines gunnery calculations exclusively. But isn't it true that any lag factor used to change what the shooting computer shows and what damage is actaully done will destroy the ability to aim?



I've just recorded an on-line event where my computer shot at a target and missed but the target took damage.

Sometimes a track file will not play back consistantly. Sometimes no hits are shown during a playback of a track that did show hits on a previous playback of the same track file.

Many playbacks of my track file example of a miss that did damage continued to show the clear miss and the damage consistantly.

How much error exists in gunnery when playing back track files?

Track file playback inspection does indicate to me that there is a factor of lag calculated against the shooting computer's gunnery. If this is the case then gunnery will suffer, in a shooting game, which is unfortunate.

The evidence is far from conclusive.

Lag does not effect hit damage consistancy when both the target computer and the shooting computer show hits yet damage is not done, at least not offline.

At least for me this discussion has been worth the effort.

My appreciation for the game IL2/FB has increased with these efforts to understand gunnery. There is value in on-line recording that I would not have realized otherwise.

blabla0001
01-19-2004, 02:15 PM
Well, I for one am pretty happy with IL2 FB regarding this.

I played CFS3 on a 100Mbit LAN and got shot down by friendly fire because a squadmate wanted to scare me a bit when he was comming up behind me and fired a few shots (according to him at least 500 yards over my plane) and I fell down in a burning hull.

Things like that really make me wonder what the hell those guys at Microsoft FlightSim department are doing all day.