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Diese_ist_shais
01-22-2004, 11:22 AM
I have flown many sims from the Microsoft Corporation and the people of the Microsoft [M$] Combat Flight Simulator community are wondering.

Is it alright for the developers of IL-2 to implement a different game engine?

Combat Flight Simulator 2 [CFS2] uses the so-called 1% Flight Dynamics method. Many believe [including real pilots] that the 1% FD is the most accurate of all flight dynamics.

Even Combat Flight Simulator 3, and Flight Simulator 2004 uses the so-called 1% FD to achieve accurate aircraft handling.

I am wondering, is it ok for the IL-2 developement team to implement this kind of game engine that M$ also implements?

If so, then does the IL-2 community agree on this issue?

I understand that using this particular engine for IL-2 might have some unwanted effects while playing online [I've seen it all]. But with 1C:Maddox Games working on this, it's possible that there might be little negative effects.

I think there is still time to use this game engine on IL-2 BoB because that sim is due next year and that this year is still young.

Does the IL-2 Community agree on this?

Besides, using this engine will allow many people to create their own addons for IL-2. Gmax is a FREE downloadable 3D design program that is commonly used in the Microsoft Flight Sim community [so does FSDS v2]. Gmax can be found at www.discreet.com (http://www.discreet.com)

Diese_ist_shais
01-22-2004, 11:22 AM
I have flown many sims from the Microsoft Corporation and the people of the Microsoft [M$] Combat Flight Simulator community are wondering.

Is it alright for the developers of IL-2 to implement a different game engine?

Combat Flight Simulator 2 [CFS2] uses the so-called 1% Flight Dynamics method. Many believe [including real pilots] that the 1% FD is the most accurate of all flight dynamics.

Even Combat Flight Simulator 3, and Flight Simulator 2004 uses the so-called 1% FD to achieve accurate aircraft handling.

I am wondering, is it ok for the IL-2 developement team to implement this kind of game engine that M$ also implements?

If so, then does the IL-2 community agree on this issue?

I understand that using this particular engine for IL-2 might have some unwanted effects while playing online [I've seen it all]. But with 1C:Maddox Games working on this, it's possible that there might be little negative effects.

I think there is still time to use this game engine on IL-2 BoB because that sim is due next year and that this year is still young.

Does the IL-2 Community agree on this?

Besides, using this engine will allow many people to create their own addons for IL-2. Gmax is a FREE downloadable 3D design program that is commonly used in the Microsoft Flight Sim community [so does FSDS v2]. Gmax can be found at www.discreet.com (http://www.discreet.com)

oFZo
01-22-2004, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diese_ist_shais:
Besides, using this engine will allow many people to create their own addons for IL-2. Gmax is a FREE downloadable 3D design program that is commonly used in the Microsoft Flight Sim community [so does FSDS v2]. Gmax can be found at http://www.discreet.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The IL2 community in general is happy the code is closed. less cheating that way...

-oFZo
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.bryant3/ETSigHolland.gif
Founding member and Offical Keeper of The Herbs of the Eurotrolls.

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LuftKuhMist
01-22-2004, 11:47 AM
Microsoft invented flight dynamics now? Sheesh... do they have a patent on gravity?

http://www.ckoi.com/ckoi2/images/comiques/normales/0000022.JPG

Diese_ist_shais
01-22-2004, 12:13 PM
I am NOT saying that M$ has a patent on the engine. M$'s game engine is open-source.

Microsoft's Simulators are more popular than UBI's simulators because there are many well-known websites that offer free downloadable addon-aircraft for their sims.

www.simviation.com (http://www.simviation.com)
www.avsim.com (http://www.avsim.com)
www.avhistory.org (http://www.avhistory.org)
www.flightsim.com (http://www.flightsim.com)
www.freeflightdesign.com (http://www.freeflightdesign.com) [full of tutorials]

A lot of people in the Microsoft flight Sim community prefer to fly an open-source sim than to fly in a closed-source sim so that they can make their own addons and play online with them.

But you are completely right. Doing this will mean that the cheaters will come and ruin the fun. Not only that, it will result in some glitches [planes stuttering in mid-air] or serious lag [a plane briefly repeating its previous flight path].

But still, there are some people who want to make there own addon for IL-2 so that it can be more fun.

LuftKuhMist
01-22-2004, 01:28 PM
Well, CFS2 was fun. But most addon planes weren't up to the original ones. You had very weird flying planes there and often they did not display damage. I prefer the IL2 way. The game got better with many patches on many aspects. CFS2 was good but did not get better overall.

http://www.ckoi.com/ckoi2/images/comiques/normales/0000022.JPG

tagert
01-22-2004, 01:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diese_ist_shais:
I am NOT saying that M$ has a patent on the engine. M$'s game engine is open-source.

Microsoft's Simulators are more popular than UBI's simulators because there are many well-known websites that offer free downloadable addon-aircraft for their sims.

http://www.simviation.com
http://www.avsim.com
http://www.avhistory.org
http://www.flightsim.com
http://www.freeflightdesign.com [full of tutorials]

A lot of people in the Microsoft flight Sim community prefer to fly an open-source sim than to fly in a closed-source sim so that they can make their own addons and play online with them.

But you are completely right. Doing this will mean that the cheaters will come and ruin the fun. Not only that, it will result in some glitches [planes stuttering in mid-air] or serious lag [a plane briefly repeating its previous flight path].

But still, there are some people who want to make there own addon for IL-2 so that it can be more fun.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>First and formost Microsoft can call thier flight models anthing they want FM98, FMNT, FM200, but it wont change the fact that CFS flight modles are more FMMe like. That is to say I am not confinced that MS FM's are better than IL2's as a mater of fact they seem to be worse. Secondly, open source is not all that it is cracked up to be.. As other noted it just makes it easy for cheaters... and that BAD outweights any of the GOOD of open sorce... Keep it closed... As for addons and the comunity making addons for IL2... Most of the new aircraft comming out were made by the comunity (Gibb) and not Madox Games. In a nut shell, we like IL2 as is

TAGERT

Diese_ist_shais
01-22-2004, 03:23 PM
So it is agreed then. The IL-2 series is better off the way it is now and there should be NO changes to the game engine at all.

Agamemnon22
01-22-2004, 03:31 PM
Aside from whatever Oleg wants to do when they completely rewrite the thing from the ground up for BoB http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Huxley_S
01-22-2004, 03:46 PM
It strikes me that with the passion there is for this game it would really benefit from the support that exists for a game like Half-Life... if the Mod community can come up with stuff like Counter Strike and Day of Defeat for that then imagine what could be done for IL2/FB.

I guess you'd already have your Korean Sim... and your BoB one too.

The reason being that it is obviously a masterpiece.

LuftKuhMist
01-22-2004, 04:05 PM
Is it some sort of propaganda for Combat Flight Sim? If it's your intention, it's pretty lame.

With third party addons, on shooters you get good stuff. In sims you get ever-climbing P47s and wonder planes that do not behave at all like the real stuff. CFS2 third party addons were mostly inferior to the original stuff.

http://www.ckoi.com/ckoi2/images/comiques/normales/0000022.JPG

tagert
01-22-2004, 04:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diese_ist_shais:
So it is agreed then. The IL-2 series is better off the way it is now and there should be NO changes to the game engine at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is allways room for improvement... BUT un-checked user FM's for 3rd party aircraft wont help as much as it will hurt the online play.. Im all for open 3rd party campains and etc.. but we have that allready. Unless there is a way to validate 3rd party FM's leave them out.

TAGERT

Diese_ist_shais
01-26-2004, 12:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Huxley_S:
It strikes me that with the passion there is for this game it would really benefit from the support that exists for a game like Half-Life... if the Mod community can come up with stuff like Counter Strike and Day of Defeat for that then imagine what could be done for IL2/FB.

I guess you'd already have your Korean Sim... and your BoB one too.

The reason being that it is obviously a masterpiece.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is NOT propoganda for the CFS series.

I am just asking to see how the IL-2 series can be improved.

Captain_Avatar
01-26-2004, 04:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tagert:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diese_ist_shais:
So it is agreed then. The IL-2 series is better off the way it is now and there should be NO changes to the game engine at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is allways room for improvement... BUT un-checked user FM's for 3rd party aircraft wont help as much as it will hurt the online play.. Im all for open 3rd party campains and etc.. but we have that allready. Unless there is a way to validate 3rd party FM's leave them out.

TAGERT<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would tend to agree that user mods can be detrimental to a historical game like IL2. On the other hand if a trusted 3rd party, specifially another software company, could come up with more maps and aircrafts I would welcome it. Who would you trust, aircraft released by someone who isn't accountable or by a developer who is licensed by 1C:Maddox Games ???

VW-IceFire
01-26-2004, 04:15 PM
From what I know the %1 method is about as good as what we have here. I'm not even sure if CFS2/CFS3 has a full physics engine in there...I think its mostly table based. Good back in the CFS2 day but computers can do the calculations now...

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
The New IL2 Database is Coming Soon!

Diese_ist_shais
01-26-2004, 04:48 PM
OOPS!!! My bad.

I was intended to quote Tagert's post, but I ended up mistakingly quoting Luft's post. :P

blabla0001
01-26-2004, 05:04 PM
Keep it closed, I really don't want to see all the CFS fantasy planes in IL2 FB or run into people who modded their favorate plane to fly 1500 km/h and shoot me down with 6x40mm cannons.

As for the M$ CFS3 engine, if you ask me it's total crap, I obtained a copy of it some time ago and I spend 4 weeks of browsing forums and downloading stuff to make it playable, but it still was not smooth.

All I had to do with Forgotten Battles was install it and configure the setup for like 1 minute and it's playing time.

Diese_ist_shais
01-26-2004, 05:30 PM
You're completely right.

Nobody in the IL-2 community ever wants a P-51 to fly a F-16 and nobody wants a Fw-190 to shoot like a Howitzer.

I am complete M$ flight sim fanatic. Trust me, there are so many addons that it's virtually impossible to download and install them all. As a result [as I fly online in FS], I tend to see a 747 do barrel rolls like a F-18. And that kills the realism.

I'm glad IL-2 is a closed-source simulator. Besides, all those addons tend to cause serious lag and glitches. I've seen it all. A 56k user like me can cause enough lag as it is. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

blabla0001
01-26-2004, 05:39 PM
Maybe you can help me with my FS 2004.

It has the framerate capped to a lowsy 20 fps, is there any way to raise that to at least 25 or 35 fps?

What's with the framerate capping and M$ FS products btw?
A cheap solution because M$ failed to get Vsync to work under DirectX is what it looks like if you ask me.

Diese_ist_shais
01-27-2004, 01:26 PM
In the FS community, many of us see 20 Frames Per Second [FPS] as a suitable and playable frame rate.

If you wish to increase the FPS Lock in FS, do this:

Start up FS2004 > Go to Settings > Display > Hardware > then look for a slider that says "Frame-Rate Lock" or something like that and move the slider to the right in order to get higher frame-rates.

If you need more help with FS2004, then go to the Forums section at www.simviation.com (http://www.simviation.com) There are a lot of memebers there [10,000+] who like to help you if you need any.

blabla0001
01-27-2004, 03:21 PM
That did it, steady 38 frames now, much better then the default 20.

And thx for the link, going to take off in a SR-71 bow, laterz.

blackTIE
01-27-2004, 05:43 PM
I can only compare the flightmodel of the out-of-the-box CFS3 and IL2(FB) and the later ones flightmodel is so much more of a challenge.

I know of the 1% group for CFS3, but I have never flown 1% planes in CFS3 (it was already on the shelf).

'Diese_ist_shais', you seem to have flown both. Can you make clear some of the differences in flightmodels of 1% CFS3 and IL2FB?

There has been a lot of discussions in these IL2FB-forums about 'the correct' flightmodel. After a few patches almost everyone seems to be happy now about the flightmodels, thanks to hard work from Oleg and team.

The fact that the 1% planes from CFS3 still have to deal with (run on top off) an elderly table-driven FM-system doesn't bode well.

I agree that being able to make 3D-models with Gmax is super, but 3D-modelling is different from FM-modelling. Opening up FM's to allow easy insertion of 3D-models is not the way to do it. At least in the case of IL2FB.

I like the idea of controlled insertion of planes. Sure, it takes longer, but the quality is so much better and more consistent.

Diese_ist_shais
01-27-2004, 06:36 PM
Trying to figure out how different Microsoft's FMs are from 1C: Maddox's FMs is like trying to figure what's the difference between 1 pound of Iron and 1 pound of Cotton.

Now that Oleg and his team has released a patch that made IL-2 a whole lot better and realistic, the IL-2 series and M$'s CFS series are now at the complete state of EQUALIBRIUM. Their basically even.