PDA

View Full Version : How to make hostages matter.



Pax_Americana
04-02-2015, 06:25 AM
Hey Ubisoft Montreal and the Rainbow Six Siege community,

After watching the most recent closed alpha gameplay footage released by the developers, I noticed one primary issue throughout the various rounds. Hostages do not matter. What each round was inevitably being reduced to was a cookie cutter team death match with whichever side happened to have better situational awareness winning the match.

While killing the opposing team and being the last man standing is a viable strategy, it really takes away the point of the hostage experience. One of the major aspects of the game that really grabbed me when Siege was first announced last year at E3 was how the hostage dynamic could really lead to some interesting gameplay opportunities. That dynamic was almost entirely absent due to the developers focusing on killing the enemy team rather than playing the actual objective.

My solution? Place more pressure on the attackers. Don't allow players to linger, camp, or remain out of the action for too long. These rounds need to be hectic, unpredictable, and the game should force the player into conflict. One great motivator is the attacking team needs to extract the hostage in order to win. This would even apply if the entirety of the defending team has been killed. Thus, this would force players to build their synergies and tactics around the hostage rather than him/her being a set piece with little importance.

This next suggestion would be less practical, but I would recommend improving the AI of the hostage. What I saw happen quite often is the defending team abandoning the hostage to go on the offensive or merely set traps. Penalize them for this if they create too much distance with the hostage. Give the hostage the tools and the possibility of making a run for it. This would force defenders to keep an eye on the hostage at all times and to not break from their actual role and form in the round. Attackers are supposed to extract the hostage and defenders are supposed to successful prevent the hostage from being extracted. Build around that notion for the game.

Otherwise, I like what I'm seeing. The game has a lot of potential and possibilities, but I really believe this major point will be crucial to the game and setting it apart from the rest. Yes, the procedural destruction and the gadgets make Siege stand out from the typical shooter with the close quarters adversarial play. However, not augmenting the importance of the hostage aspect of the game will severely undermine the variety, diversity, and longevity in the experience. Team death match isn't anything new and I'm certain that mode is already available in Siege. Lets take the hostage experience to a whole new level, as that is what should really be the focus of the attackers and the defenders.

Thank you. Cheers Ubisoft for a job well done so far!

RESlDENTEVIL 6
04-02-2015, 06:46 AM
I agree with you in the livestream it seemed like a deathmatch more then anything. But balancing issues would seem to be the problem here. For example, attackers are able to persue from any angle and almost any form of entry. If the defenders absolutely had to stay there and defend the hostage, well, then the only fair way to balance this out for the defenders would be to remove the beginning scout drones, to prevent the attackers from knowing precisely where the hostage is. ( I agree with you , your and my points up to here combined in my opinion would make for a more diverse and interesting gameplay)

Since the defenders would have to keep a man eying the hostage at all times, you would understand why at least 2 or 3 would be there in case the 1 guy would die. But then you get gameplay where the entire match is decided in one event, breaching of that single room. its ultimately a balancing issue as I said, if you really want this to fall through id recommend providing some resolves for it, id like to see what you have in mind

Why fix something that's not broken? or if there is no struggle, their is no progress?

we will see ;)

Pax_Americana
04-02-2015, 04:33 PM
I agree with you in the livestream it seemed like a deathmatch more then anything. But balancing issues would seem to be the problem here. For example, attackers are able to persue from any angle and almost any form of entry. If the defenders absolutely had to stay there and defend the hostage, well, then the only fair way to balance this out for the defenders would be to remove the beginning scout drones, to prevent the attackers from knowing precisely where the hostage is. ( I agree with you , your and my points up to here combined in my opinion would make for a more diverse and interesting gameplay)

Since the defenders would have to keep a man eying the hostage at all times, you would understand why at least 2 or 3 would be there in case the 1 guy would die. But then you get gameplay where the entire match is decided in one event, breaching of that single room. its ultimately a balancing issue as I said, if you really want this to fall through id recommend providing some resolves for it, id like to see what you have in mind

Why fix something that's not broken? or if there is no struggle, their is no progress?

we will see ;)
One easy solution would be to encourage defenders to move the hostage in a time of crisis for extra benefits. The game doesn't have to force defenders into a room and camp until the attackers make their move. On the contrary, I believe there should be movement throughout a match on the part of both teams, but it should be centered around that hostage play.

There wouldn't necessarily be an issue with one guy keeping an eye on the hostage. In fact, he could serve as bait on the part of the defenders to lure the attackers in. I think one of the most important things Ubisoft Montreal can do is to keep matches as unpredictable and interesting as possible. They could take cues from Evolve with there being various stages of a monster evolving. In the case of Siege, this could be various stages on the part of the defenders to eventually execute the hostage. This would, again, force attackers to actually want to extract rather than just kill.

I think it would also perhaps be interesting if attackers were awarded more points for extracting a hostage, especially if the defending team is still alive. This could lead to various strategies and opportunities such as decoys, suppressive fire, mind games, etc. The whole point of this game type is for Rainbow Six to extract the hostage quickly, efficiently, and with minimal casualties. Team work is key, but this should be a match about saving a life for the attackers, not killing the enemy.

One last point is I believe splitting up should be encouraged for both teams with the idea of the hostage play still the crux of the experience. It's not nearly as interesting when entire squads are just moving together and ganging up on a straggler to kill him. There should be multiple insertion points attackers should be encouraged to use. Perhaps scale back the power of drones and cameras to force attackers to actually cover the entire map to see what is happening. This would hopefully also discourage the camping mentality by having multiple entrances in order to get to a hostage, making such a tactic suicide.

Action and reaction. Pull and push. The match should be constantly flowing and one will never know what could happen next. That, in my opinion, would be the ultimate goal of this game type.

Cortexian
04-02-2015, 04:42 PM
I had an idea to make the hostage more relevant, but it would only really work in a hardcore game mode.

The hostage starts with an explosive vest attached to them. If the attackers don't reach the hostage and "disarm" the vest in X time, the vest detonates and the attackers lose. Attackers still need to either escort the hostage out of the building, or kill all the defenders to win.

The difference is that this forces the attackers to B-Line to the hostage and disarm the vest before they focus on anything else, and if you're already at the hostage, why not try and escort them out?

Pax_Americana
04-02-2015, 05:02 PM
I had an idea to make the hostage more relevant, but it would only really work in a hardcore game mode.

The hostage starts with an explosive vest attached to them. If the attackers don't reach the hostage and "disarm" the vest in X time, the vest detonates and the attackers lose. Attackers still need to either escort the hostage out of the building, or kill all the defenders to win.

The difference is that this forces the attackers to B-Line to the hostage and disarm the vest before they focus on anything else, and if you're already at the hostage, why not try and escort them out?

This is actually a really interesting idea and would provide more incentive to actually go towards the hostage. I think it could certainly work and at least make killing the other team more credible if you have disarmed the explosive strapped to the hostage. It's somewhat similar to my idea of time expiring and eventually the hostage is executed, but it has the same positive result of keeping the experience on the hostage. I really hope Ubisoft is considering something like this. I really don't even see a point to a hostage if everybody will just focus on death matching instead of the actual objective of the match.

RubberDucky582
04-02-2015, 06:05 PM
I had an idea to make the hostage more relevant, but it would only really work in a hardcore game mode.

The hostage starts with an explosive vest attached to them. If the attackers don't reach the hostage and "disarm" the vest in X time, the vest detonates and the attackers lose. Attackers still need to either escort the hostage out of the building, or kill all the defenders to win.

The difference is that this forces the attackers to B-Line to the hostage and disarm the vest before they focus on anything else, and if you're already at the hostage, why not try and escort them out?

----------------

That is an absolutely 100% excellent idea... WOW... I would be 100% for something along these lines... well done mate

RedKnight5
04-02-2015, 06:38 PM
I had an idea to make the hostage more relevant, but it would only really work in a hardcore game mode.

The hostage starts with an explosive vest attached to them. If the attackers don't reach the hostage and "disarm" the vest in X time, the vest detonates and the attackers lose. Attackers still need to either escort the hostage out of the building, or kill all the defenders to win.

The difference is that this forces the attackers to B-Line to the hostage and disarm the vest before they focus on anything else, and if you're already at the hostage, why not try and escort them out?

Excellent idea! I like it!! :cool:

Cortexian
04-02-2015, 07:37 PM
Additionally, I think that if the attackers can escort the hostage to safety without disarming the vest, but before the vest detonates, that should also count as a victory.

Thoughts?

BTW I just posted this on the Reddit too! Please upvote it and reply there as well so the team knows we like this idea!
http://www.reddit.com/r/Rainbow6/comments/317x76/making_the_hostage_relevant/

Pax_Americana
04-02-2015, 08:13 PM
Additionally, I think that if the attackers can escort the hostage to safety without disarming the vest, but before the vest detonates, that should also count as a victory.

Thoughts?

BTW I just posted this on the Reddit too! Please upvote it and reply there as well so the team knows we like this idea!
http://www.reddit.com/r/Rainbow6/comments/317x76/making_the_hostage_relevant/

Absolutely. My primary issue with the game is that hostages do not matter in a scenario where the attackers are supposed to extract the hostage from the defenders. As long as the players are actually engaging in the main objective of the match, whether it's disarming the explosive strapped to the hostage or escorting him/her to safety, that should count towards the victory. Ubisoft could even add in variety in which some matches might have a bomb strapped to the hostage that you have to disarm or you have to escort them so that gameplay doesn't become redundant. Keeping the consistency and importance on the major objective is what really needs to happen to live up to what Siege was originally conceived as being. Generic death matching is not why I was particularly impressed with this game when it was revealed at E3 last year.

RedKnight5
04-02-2015, 08:16 PM
Additionally, I think that if the attackers can escort the hostage to safety without disarming the vest, but before the vest detonates, that should also count as a victory.

Thoughts?

BTW I just posted this on the Reddit too! Please upvote it and reply there as well so the team knows we like this idea!
http://www.reddit.com/r/Rainbow6/comments/317x76/making_the_hostage_relevant/


Your idea sounds like you must have played SOCOM Confrontation at some point in time. Socom had a play mode called: Extraction. It sounds similar to your Escort idea.

In Socom Extraction mode: The Mercenary team has possession of three hostages, in which the Commandos must get possession of and escort to one of 2 extraction points. The Commandos win by extracting two of three hostages or by eliminating the Mercenaries (no re-spawn match). The Mercenary team wins by eliminating the Commando team (no re-spawn match).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvERC_xqklc

Just strap some firecrackers on the back of the hostage..... presto! A hostage that could go BOOM if you can't get your job done in time.

Of course... today we don't call the bad guys terrorists or Mercenaries any more. That's just not PC now. They are now called: "Unusually Hostel Misunderstood Individuals Lacking Good Employment... due to an Internet Video posted online."

I'm trying not to post another video I have in mind..... http://www.01gifs.com/smileys/communication/9.gif
Suzie knows what I mean...

Cortexian
04-02-2015, 08:22 PM
I like "OPFOR" as a PC term. "Opposing Force" can be applied to pretty much anything.

;)

Pax_Americana
04-02-2015, 10:08 PM
...

It's interesting how old systems seem to get recycled and appear in games again. There are certainly a lot of parallels to Rainbow Six Siege and SOCOM, as they really are fundamentally about the strategic shooter experience. I think part of the reason the hostage may be in a precarious situation currently is because Ubisoft Montreal doesn't want to dictate to the player how to play the game. From playing many shooters, online games, and MMOs over the years, players generally don't care about objectives and always default to death matching.

That's certainly fine in a game type that is suited for that purpose, such as team death match, but not really for what Siege is attempting with the hostage scenario. I'm certain Siege will have a team death match just like every other shooter in existence. To really expand the community, appeal, and broaden the variety, I think it would be in there best interest for the various game types to be as different and unique as possible. Far too often are game types in shooters too similar and you wonder why half of them even exist. Some of the best game types I ever played in a shooter were custom-made game types such as Zombies, Grifball, cat & mouse, and various others that kept Halo 2 alive far beyond any default developer game made by Bungie. Those game types were so popular and unique that Bungie and 343 adopted them as official game matches in future installments.

I'm hoping Ubisoft Montreal really heavily considers how important separating these various game types actually will be for the longevity of the experience.

mau5eum
04-02-2015, 10:20 PM
The mission in Rainbow Six has always been to rescue the hostage or kill the enemies.

Pax_Americana
04-03-2015, 12:01 AM
The mission in Rainbow Six has always been to rescue the hostage or kill the enemies.

While that may be the case, it doesn't in any way legitimize the almost irrelevance the hostage actually plays in the experience. If we were to assume this were actually "real life," priority would be to get the hostage out alive. Obviously, you'd want to try and neutralize any hostiles that might harm your team, but the overall mission is for extraction of the target. In most of the footage that Ubisoft Montreal has shown, the hostage is rarely extracted nor considered. It's a pure team death match, and we don't need a hostage for that. I merely bring this up because I believe this game type is actually quite different from what we generally receive in AAA shooters. I just don't want what makes Rainbow Six Siege stand out to be overshadowed by typical shooter tropes that homogenize and bring down the entire genre as a whole.

mau5eum
04-03-2015, 12:43 AM
Just like in real life, ugh at citing that, things don't always go to plan and you have to use alternative methods to secure the safety of the hostage.

I wouldn't make any judgements about hostage relevance based upon official game play footage, the people at Ubisoft are almost always not doing anything until the last thirty seconds.

Watch some of the leaked footage, people are extracting the hostage within the first minute.

Pax_Americana
04-03-2015, 03:55 AM
Just like in real life, ugh at citing that, things don't always go to plan and you have to use alternative methods to secure the safety of the hostage.

I wouldn't make any judgements about hostage relevance based upon official game play footage, the people at Ubisoft are almost always not doing anything until the last thirty seconds.

Watch some of the leaked footage, people are extracting the hostage within the first minute.

While that may be true, the ultimate goal remains the same. Unless the hostage dies, which is the end of the round anyways, getting the hostage out will always be the endgame. I'm not even going based solely on just Ubisoft's official alpha gameplay footage. I'm basing my assertions on gameplay in general, whether from Ubisoft or closed alpha. It doesn't matter. The point is the game type is built in such a way that it's easier to just kill the enemy team rather than extract the hostage. It's purely a game design issue and there are ways Ubisoft could rectify this.

You can always throw out that one example of someone actually extracting the hostage, but 80%+ of the matches always end with one team killing the other. That's the problem. This isn't a team death match nor should that be the mentality. If that's what I wanted to play, I would just play team death match. I really don't see why anybody would actually be opposed to this idea as it's perfectly valid criticism to make the game better. Otherwise, if major aspects such as this aren't even addressed, I can already predict the fate this game will have before it's even released.

Ubisoft needs to focus on the strengths of this title rather than trying to compete with other AAA shooters. That is a losing battle and Rainbow will lose to Call of Duty or Halo every time. If this game is going to have any shot at true success, it needs to separate itself from the crowd. This is one way in which it can do that, as the hostage experience was the reason many became interested in this game to start when it was revealed last year at E3.

mau5eum
04-03-2015, 04:19 AM
You're creating a problem out of something that isn't one.

Pax_Americana
04-03-2015, 04:32 AM
You're creating a problem out of something that isn't one.

Extensive video footage suggests otherwise. I'd love to have your blind optimism, but this game vaguely resembles what Ubisoft presented during the E3 2014 reveal. Again, why have a hostage if the hostage doesn't even matter 80% of the matches? I'm obviously not the only one who feels this way as there have been others in this thread who agree this is a problem. The question is why do you not see it?

mau5eum
04-03-2015, 04:36 AM
The hostage always matters, but unfortunately the defending team isn't sitting around having tea and sandwiches in the hostage area.

navoj-
04-03-2015, 05:00 AM
Extensive video footage suggests otherwise. I'd love to have your blind optimism, but this game vaguely resembles what Ubisoft presented during the E3 2014 reveal. Again, why have a hostage if the hostage doesn't even matter 80% of the matches? I'm obviously not the only one who feels this way as there have been others in this thread who agree this is a problem. The question is why do you not see it?

If you think that the game has turned into a "team death match" you are wrong.. Obviously there's a reason why the attacker's are going in, they are there to go and get the hostage if they cannot get the hostage they must kill the enemy.. (what's wrong with that? nothing..)

I guess CSGO did the hostage/rescue wrong because almost 80% of the time in public gaming they kill each other anyway's. ( and they got a bigger map to run around ) ughhh...................

Regardless of what mode you're playing the goal is to win :)

ALSO ~

please stop with the (realism) card, it's a joke..

D3ag
04-03-2015, 05:31 PM
Ok so when I was watching the alpha footage I got the same idea as everyone else that the hostage doesn't really matter it was just a team death match. After some thought on the issue I came to the conclusion that in a way the hostage does matter even if he isn't being extracted because it causes the defending team to fortify in a certain section of the map and stay there because they can't leave the hostage. Doing so will give the attackers free access to the hostage. This keeps them having to protect a certain part of the map instead of having the entire defending team roaming the map in turn making it a true death match. Unfortunately when you have a game type like this it's hard to complete the entire objective of extracting the hostage when most of the time to even get to the hostage you would have to kill the entire defending team anyways. In a way the hostage plays a crucial role in keeping the defenders from running around with no objective. Think about real life situations with hostages. How often do the hostages get rescued when all the people holding them hostage are alive? Not very often right? Most of the time they're either all killed or they surrender. I do think the round times are a little short. Yes it's supposed to be a precise and fast strike to save the hostage but at the same time I find right now the attacking side is a lot harder than it should be because of the time restraint. maybe adding an extra 45 seconds to the round will help with a bit more strategy and a lot more precise takes as well as fakes to make the defending team think you're hitting an area when you're really going to breach behind them while they're looking at the initial fake. Right now it seems it takes way to long to clear the map up until the point where the hostage is actually being held, so much that tactics are being rushed at the point where tactics really matter and make or break the round.

FORCExRECON
04-04-2015, 03:45 AM
Not sure if this has been suggested but my favorite mp game mode of all time was the VIP escort from SWAT 4. The way they upped the pressure on the rescuing team was that when the game clock ran to zero the bad guys could execute the hostage to win the game. However if the suspects fail to kill him and SWAT managed to extract him after the timer ran down SWAT would win even if the timer was completely run out.

tearfulrelic86
04-04-2015, 04:05 AM
Give them three modes, still, nervous and scared