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Teknia
03-31-2015, 09:38 AM
Maybe it is just because I am older, and know more about tactics and construction but I am having some trouble with the new Rainbow 6 siege gameplay. I grew up with Rainbow 6 (old school) and Ghost Recon and Tom Clancey might be rolling over in his grave given the departure of Siege from modern law-enforcement, counter-terror, and military urban conflict tactics. Five barricaded gunmen with automatic weapons and explosives against only five SWAT officers. The SWAT Officers are firing rifle rounds through wood and sheetrock structures, blowing holes in load bearing walls. Where is the fiber optics, the thermal vision? In the US the military recently released a lot of surplus military hardware to law-enforcement. Cut the power to give law enforcement some edge with low light tactics, flash and strobe lights are common on modern law-enforcement entry guns. I realize this is a game but at least a nod to modern tactics would be nice, it is what made Rainbow 6 believable. It let you inhabit a counter-terrorism operator's shoes. Firefights should be frantic and lethal with emphasis on entry and "slicing the pie" and doing whatever you can to tip the odds in your favor. Preparation with a few moments of action.

Additionally the Gunman should never go outside or a sniper would shoot them, they are barricaded for a reason. Where is the story, the overwrought techno-thriller I have come to love? Why does the swat leader in the gameplay session use an ACOG scope, usually 4x inside a house? Is he engaging people at 100 yards? A D-ring or EO tech would be more appropriate, also switch to something other than a carbine version of a long gun. Those bullets won't stop until they hit concrete or dirt. Military assault rifles were made to pierce light armor, they can shoot through the sheet steel of cars. There is a reason why the MP5 is so popular, load it with hollow points and it have amazing stopping power and will rarely over-penetrate. Pistol ammunition in the frame of a carbine makes a submachine gun.

I could go on, give the terrorists pipe-bombs, move the hostage around and bind her, have the gunmen don homemade body armor breach police lines, etc... I realize that Rainbow 6 has to update with the times or become obsolete but does it have to become like every other tactical shooter with a destruction mechanic and counterstrike aspirations. I would love to really embrace weapon and gear customization like the gunsmith system in Ghost Recon Future Soldier hinted at. I am excited about the improvements to game engine and destruction but don't lose the creative vision that made Rainbow 6 the best counter-terror game series ever.

David

W4icc
03-31-2015, 10:08 AM
In all points i'm with you, as i wrote today in other threads i think we're going to get another "run-of-the-mill" shooter... allthough i hope that i am wrong :eek:

PH.Garensterz
03-31-2015, 02:34 PM
Make the game even slower. It's like all of the characters are super high on cocaine.

RedKnight5
03-31-2015, 05:08 PM
Sounds like Teknia (http://forums.ubi.com/member.php/1760529-Teknia) or David... comes from a Military or Law Enforcement back ground with the knowledge he has in his above post. Good post.

My son-in-law is a real life Police S.W.A.T. Officer here in Central Ohio(U.S.A.). He's been looking forward to a great new Rainbow6 game for years. As have I. We played the old RB6 games in Co-Op mode all night long and he taught me proper tactics that real S.W.A.T Officers know and use everyday. Of course, some tactics questions I asked, he could not discuss due to the secrecy of his job. Nuff said. But it was a blast learning what he showed me.

As Garensterz2014 (http://forums.ubi.com/member.php/1603635-Garensterz2014) noted: "It's like all of the characters are super high on cocaine". I agree. But maybe Caffeine? Time is very short to get anything done from what I've seen so far. It looks to be so fast paced and crazy... I'll have to put my controller down after an hour of play time, so I don't have a heart attack. I'm not sure I like that. As I've stated in other parts of this Forum. I play video games to relax... and to relax in this game looks to be almost impossible. If the "Game Play Clock" can't be adjusted so players can play the game at the pace they want... that's a black mark against Siege... IMO.

As W4icc (http://forums.ubi.com/member.php/1760467-W4icc) mentioned... "i think we're going to get another "run-of-the-mill" shooter". I don't think that will be the case... as it is in Battlefield4 and the CoD games. That's good and bad. GOOD, if the true Tactics Teamwork element is there.... BAD, if RB6 Siege gets so complicated that it gets overwhelming to learn the game, it's settings, it's load-outs, maps and play styles just to win matches. If a game gets to complicated to learn and play... that can make a game a "fringe and niche game" for many players looking for something new to play.

The old SOCOM games were considered to be fringe and niche games back then. SOCOM wasn't for everybody. Players stated that SOCOM and it's maps and game styles were to complicated to learn and master. Many gamers I recruited for our SOCOM Clan just gave up on SOCOM and looked for something else more fun to play. Of course... someone like myself and my friends thought SOCOM was fun and a blast to play. But it took work and time to learn it. But SOCOM turned off many new players to the game. Of course... today, SOCOM would be considered a noob game and easy to learn, compared next to Battlefield4 and even COD now.

I hope RB6 Siege doesn't become so difficult and time consuming to learn the game for new players that come to RB6 Siege for the first time. Sure... you don't want to play with Noob players that just hide in a corner and get so terrorized by Siege the first week they play it and leave or won't take the time to learn it... but you don't want Siege to be too easy either. That brings in the "Casual vs Hardcore" modes, so new players can learn Siege at first as a Casual player and learn and get use to the game at their own pace. Also maybe a "Non-Timed" good "Test Range" map to learn and hone your skills... maybe with and without bots at your choosing. I don't want to use the Single Player game to hone certain skills I want to work on individually. Battlefield 4 has it's "Test Range"... and it comes in real handy for this. Real S.W.A.T. Officers don't get thrown into the action their first day... without a Boot Camp and training to learn how to stay alive and become a good Team Member.

Battlefield 4 lost it's Clan Support and became so overly complicated to learn the "whole" game... that it seems only the most dedicated players willing to spend hours each day to learn and play it... will be the ones to reach it's highest levels of achievements to become great at it. The majority of the gaming public with real lives and families... don't have time to play one game 5+ hours each night to get good at it... and not get divorced. Some of my video playing friends have faced just that reality.

So... I don't want to see RB6 Siege to become a game... only a small online group of select and fringe players will want to learn and play it. If RB6 Siege becomes today's "fringe and niche" game... it's sales numbers will suffer greatly and this game will be sitting on the used games shelves everywhere. So it's going to be a delicate balance that UbiSoft needs to achieve for this game in my view. Battlefield 4 and the COD games have become today's "Run & Gun" kid games. You don't want that in RB6 Siege. Teamwork, Communication, Tactics and Strategy will make or break Siege for the players willing to take the time to learn it. But "Tactics and Strategy", that is so difficult to learn and achieve for new (and the old) players, to understand and get it down at the beginning... could throw Siege into a "niche game hole"... it may never dig itself out of.

So far... Siege looks like a lot of fun to play... once you learn all the ins and outs of it, to be good at it.

shobhit7777777
03-31-2015, 05:37 PM
The core 'Siege' concept is IMO..rock solid. I feel it has done more than enough to differentiate it from the existing games out there....HOWEVER...it is not at all an R6 game IMO. Whether that is good or bad...is entirely up to an individual's view.

I personally feel that right now - Alpha stage - it looks like a Battlefield Mod/DLC....albeit an awesome one. I do feel that this game has a lot of promise and is indeed tactical...but also feel that its not "Rainbow Six" tactical

From what I've seen I feel that the gunplay and movement need to be slowed down and added weight to...it looks very arcadish. Everytime I see a CT spray a 10 round burst I cringe....everytime I see a CT strafe left right in ADS, instead of lean...I cringe.

I do understand that there are modern standards to FPS gaming...and they are aiming for shorter, sharper sessions...but I can't help but miss the old school pace.

Furthermore, certain HUD and gameplay elements simply remove tactical depth from the game.

Hitmarkers for instance. I completely understand why, with the shoot through cover system, they need hitmarkers to a degree....but can't it be done organically? Maybe tagging an enemy makes him/her yell out "****!" or a "Aargh!"...it would be a more organic way of communicating important info.

The big "GRAB" diamond on the hostage's head - that IMO just absolutely kills the whole feeling of being super careful with your charges, grenades and fire....you can fire willy nilly and chuck grenades all over the place because you KNOW that the hostage isn't there.

I completely get where Ubi are coming from....however the R6 fan in me can't but lament the loss of that old school pace and feel. I'm looking forward to Siege nonetheless...and since this is Alpha, I guess we all need to reserve judgement.

I do sincerely hope that they add in a 'Classic Rules' mode where they:

1. Chuck intrusive UI elements
2. Tweak the gunplay and movement to be slower- actions take time and weight...without compromising their Fluidity and Input Driven design
3. Increase hit lethality - You get tagged...you are out.
4. Greater match time for a more planned session

pedropbc
03-31-2015, 06:42 PM
R6 Lockdown started the killing of this franchise, R6 Siege will finish the job. RIP R6.

Maffia-Thug
03-31-2015, 08:48 PM
R6 Lockdown started the killing of this franchise, R6 Siege will finish the job. RIP R6.

I started playing with Lockdown. I really enjoyed it. It's actually what started my whole online FPS gaming. I guess I don't know the difference between Lockdown and the previous R6's?

SLYSIR
03-31-2015, 09:03 PM
Good day guys,
Hey Teknia,Redknight5, shobhit7777777, i could not say better guys, 100% with you.....
I just hope i will be playing with you guys and i should have a great time playing Rainbow Six Siege.

Take care guys

pedropbc
04-01-2015, 02:04 PM
I started playing with Lockdown. I really enjoyed it. It's actually what started my whole online FPS gaming. I guess I don't know the difference between Lockdown and the previous R6's?

Don't get me wrong. Lockdown, Vegas, Vegas 2 are good games but they don't deserve the R6 title. Older R6 games was slower, much more realistic, much more imersive. You actually feel the tension. There was a deep planning phase in which you could issue go codes and synchronize your teams. And they punished you hard for your mistakes. After R63 they made Lockdown, they basicaly stripped down the game from all great features/Characteristics that made this franchise so great and loved. Since Lockdown R6 has never been the same. The series is now fast and arcady, the shooting don't require more advanced trigger control, they use ammo pool, as for Siege you can see that is a blind fire pray and spray fest. In older R6 games you could finish a map without even changing a magazine because you shoot 1 or 2 bullets per enemy. Again, Siege looks like a cool game fun and all but... it really don't deserve R6 title as the same for Lockdown, Vegas 1, 2.