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View Full Version : am i missing out by not using c.e.m ?



frior-one
03-03-2004, 03:46 AM
having only recently got hold of il2:fb i am playng mainly in qmb. i have picked the hurricane IIb and put 32 squadron from Biggin Hill on it (as i live in Croydon, surrey) that airfield is about 2 mins flying time away. i am not using cem and superchargers etc, am i missing out on an important performance "tweek" ?

frior-one
03-03-2004, 03:46 AM
having only recently got hold of il2:fb i am playng mainly in qmb. i have picked the hurricane IIb and put 32 squadron from Biggin Hill on it (as i live in Croydon, surrey) that airfield is about 2 mins flying time away. i am not using cem and superchargers etc, am i missing out on an important performance "tweek" ?

SUPERAEREO
03-03-2004, 04:03 AM
Yes in a way, the plane will be more responsive and performing if the engine is managed properly, but especially if you mainly play offline you can ignore CEM until you feel fully confident with the way you fly, take off and land the plane.

You can always start to familiarize yourself with the various controls by learning them one at the time: prop pitch, then mixture control, supercharger etc.

Even if you fly online much will depend on the host's settings, but if you tend to dogfight under 2.5-3Km of alt, you will not have to use CEM very much anyway.

S!

robban75
03-03-2004, 04:20 AM
Have you downloaded the 1.22 patch? If you haven't then CEM is very important if you fly German inline engined fighters. I remeber that without using CEM on the D-9, the cowlflaps were always open causing a lot of drag. The same went for the 109 family.

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

03-03-2004, 04:20 AM
Engine management is not a "tweek". It is essential.

Recon_609IAP
03-03-2004, 05:03 AM
prop pitch control is great - learn to use it - it can increase your speed, you have more control over your engine, etc...

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem
http://www.jarsofclay.com/

03-03-2004, 05:15 AM
However..... using manual prop pitch on German fighters is nonhistoric. Nobody bothered to run the prop manually in real life.

Using manual prop pitch to wring every last bit of power out of German fighters is not *quite* cheating, but it is borderline. It definitely counts as "gaming the game" in my book.

It's the same sort of thing as laydown bombing at 10m altitude with bomb fuzes set to 10 seconds. Sure, you *could* have done that in real life, but nobody is dumb enough to do it in real life trusting that the bombs won't cook off on impact. Once again "gaming the game".

Anyway, the settings are there for you to toggle as you please. I choose to fly historically because it adds to the immersion. ~S~

x__CRASH__x
03-03-2004, 05:33 AM
If you fly the bf-109, you should most certainly use manual prop. Historic or not, it will improve the performance of your machine.

www.ghostskies.com
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03-03-2004, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
Historic or not, it will improve the performance of your machine.

Some people choose not to cheat.

You can fly it like a simulator, or fly it like an arcade game. The choice is yours.

Chuck_Older
03-03-2004, 08:07 AM
I am almost certain that I have, in a book at home, a quote from Steinhilper that indicates his new plane (Bf 109 E7, I think?) had automatic pitch control, whereas the plane ( a different 109) he had been normally flying did not.

When I get home I'll dig out the book and post the quote.

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

Alexi_Alx_Anova
03-03-2004, 08:29 AM
I've got to say, I'm puzzled by prop pitch. I leave it at 100% on takeoff and climb. When I level out, I may drop it down to 95 - 90% for cruise. If I turn it down any more in level flight, there is a noticable slowing of the plane. In dives, I'll drop it down to at the most 50% to avoid over stressing the engine. It looks like most planes like about 25,000 - 30,000 rpm. If I drop prop pitch anything lower than 50%, there is servere slowing of the plane so I reserve that for emergency dives. I've therefore never understood why there is all this prop pitch 'space' available when most of the time you use only 5 - 10% of it and sometimes use up to 50% of it.

Then the other day I downloaded a number of .ntrk files from someone on SimHQ who had posted them in a TrackIR thread. I was completely amazed. For 40 minutes this guy in a 109 was BnZ'ing a whole hoard of planes and never did he go above 80% prop pitch. At most he dropped down to 50%. He had the radiator shut most of the time and the throttle full forward and regulated the speed of his plane purely by adjusting prop pitch. And the plane just climbed and climbed! Even though he was turning and diving and all that, he was still climbing overall and with only 80% prop pitch. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I thought, "I've completely misinterpreted the use of prop pitch. I should use lower values like it was overdrive in a car" and so I tried it in a P-47 with predictable results....flys like a drunk duck. Am I a fool, or, dare I say it, is the 109 overmodeled?

Alexi

mortoma
03-03-2004, 08:42 AM
As a RL pilot, I must say I hate CEM in this game.
I'm sorry but I don't recommend it at all. Flying a real plane with a constant speed prop, makes it neccesary to always see the manifold pressure and the tachometer, which of course you can. But in FB you can't see either one in most planes in the normal cockpit veiw. In order to fly CEM, I'd have to be able to see them. With TIR it might be different since you can "look" down to see the guages. But how many of us have TIR?? Not me!! So I fly without CEM and stay offline for the most part, even if I do hate the AI in this game in most ways. But I hate CEM more. Who wants to fly around and not know what your RPMs are?? Not me...............

tonedogbf110
03-03-2004, 08:48 AM
Well i'd say hell yes you are missing out.

When I learn't how to play this game its something that had me phased I have to say.
but when i got used to it, i'd never go back!

and yes I do have track IR and can keep an eye on guages, but this is not really necesary because this is not a real plane!

I find I can get far better performance and other features out of it.

example I never fly the P40 on 100% prop pitch, Its not bad but if you set PP in the P40 ro 90% it flys like a dream and rarely overheats!

there are definatley bonuses, but anyway this is just my opinion.

http://www.iainmccarthy.com/fb/tonedog_sig.jpg

Maple_Tiger
03-03-2004, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by Alexi_Alx_Anova:
I've got to say, I'm puzzled by prop pitch. I leave it at 100% on takeoff and climb. When I level out, I may drop it down to 95 - 90% for cruise. If I turn it down any more in level flight, there is a noticable slowing of the plane. In dives, I'll drop it down to at the most 50% to avoid over stressing the engine. It looks like most planes like about 25,000 - 30,000 rpm. If I drop prop pitch anything lower than 50%, there is servere slowing of the plane so I reserve that for emergency dives. I've therefore never understood why there is all this prop pitch 'space' available when most of the time you use only 5 - 10% of it and sometimes use up to 50% of it.

Then the other day I downloaded a number of .ntrk files from someone on SimHQ who had posted them in a TrackIR thread. I was completely amazed. For 40 minutes this guy in a 109 was BnZ'ing a whole hoard of planes and never did he go above 80% prop pitch. At most he dropped down to 50%. He had the radiator shut most of the time and the throttle full forward and regulated the speed of his plane purely by adjusting prop pitch. And the plane just climbed and climbed! Even though he was turning and diving and all that, he was still climbing overall and with only 80% prop pitch. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I thought, "I've completely misinterpreted the use of prop pitch. I should use lower values like it was overdrive in a car" and so I tried it in a P-47 with predictable results....flys like a drunk duck. Am I a fool, or, dare I say it, is the 109 overmodeled?

Alexi

You are confused becaues there are not many places that explane CPS(Constant Speed Propeller) very well.

You said you downloaded a track of a guy in a BF109 BnZ'ing. For starters this guy in the track was using Manual prop pitch.

Only certain planes have the option of using Manuel prop pitch. The BF109 and FW190.

Most allied palnes are CPS, like the P-40, P39, P-47, P38, P-47, La7, La5, Lagg, Mig, and Yak for example. They do not have manuel prop pitch.

That is why you can leave it at 100% RPM setting or Combat RPM. The CPS governer will regulate the Pitch automaticaly to keep the RPM where you have Set it.

For CPS planes think of it like Cruse control. You set the RPM to 2700 = about 90% in the game and the governer will automaticaly keep the RPM at 2700.

It is still a good idea though to set the RPM a little lower if you go into a dive and will keep you engine a bit cooler.

The BF109 and FW190 have the auto and manuel option. Its not a bad idea to lern Manuel prop pitch though. Just take a BF109 and switch it from auto to Manuel. It should tell you if you have actualy switched it manuel. You might have to map a key though.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/pd6c878f0006c224805da6c9645408b41/fb291d3e.jpg

Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

S 8
03-03-2004, 09:21 AM
This is my CEM handling.
100% prop pitch all the time unless I´m diveing.
Lower mixture when I hear the enginge bludder or loss in power at altitude
Turbochargers....I usually turn them on at 2500-3000 meters.
I know that it is a very rudiment CEM handling but it works for me.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_113_1073048715.jpg

BpGemini
03-03-2004, 09:24 AM
IMO if you are not playing Full Real then you are missing out.

It's not a hoorah I play full real thing either.
Simply put, to me Full Real = Full Immersion.

http://www.blitzpigs.com/images/P-39_BlitzPig_Sig_01.jpg
IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

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ZG77_Lignite
03-03-2004, 09:27 AM
One minor correction Maple Tiger, the FW190 uses a constant speed prop (in 'manual' mode) just like the allied fighters. In (default) 'auto' mode, it uses a CSP with the addition of '1 lever control' (also known as Kommandergerat system). 'Auto' mode in FW190 effectively controls prop pitch, manifold pressure, supercharger stage and fuel mixture. In 'Manual' mode, it operates as a constant speed prop, just like a P47 or La5 (mixture and superchargers are still regulated by the Kommandergerat).

At this point (FB ver 1.22) the Bf109 series is the only aircraft to still use the older system of pilot managed prop pitch (even though it is fitted/retrofitted with a RPM governor, the 'auto system').

IMHO, the best explanation of all this is to be found here:
http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/cemguide/intro.htm

LilHorse
03-03-2004, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by mortoma:
As a RL pilot, I must say I hate CEM in this game.
I'm sorry but I don't recommend it at all. Flying a real plane with a constant speed prop, makes it neccesary to always see the manifold pressure and the tachometer, which of course you can. But in FB you can't see either one in most planes in the normal cockpit veiw. In order to fly CEM, I'd have to be able to see them. With TIR it might be different since you can "look" down to see the guages. But how many of us have TIR?? Not me!! So I fly without CEM and stay offline for the most part, even if I do hate the AI in this game in most ways. But I hate CEM more. Who wants to fly around and not know what your RPMs are?? Not me...............

If you fly 109s it's all right there in front of you. Same with the P-40 and Hurri (if you move the view back via shift-F1 you see even more on the Hurri). Try 'em, you'll like 'em!

F19_Ob
03-03-2004, 10:15 AM
Actully U are not missing much and it sound more complicated than it is. The only difficult part is manual proppitch ,wich easily destroys an engine if u are not very carefull.Thats why planes got the autosettings.

U can gain a little in performance Using the manual prop pitch, but it really is a very little difference, and I suggest u use autosettings on prop pitch so u have less to worry about in combat . The Finnish messerschmittpilots used autosettings on everything exept that they opened the radiator fully on taxiing and takeoff so it wouldnt overheat.

Other than that Its fun to open and close the radiator manually and to know on what altitude to switch the supercharger in that particular plane.( different in all ac)
then there is only one thing left, and that is to set down mixture a bit on high altitude and this is also different in all ac. If U dont set down mixture the engine will start smoking in high altitude.


In axis plane fw190 and the 109's u only have to deal with the radiator wich is easy. Fully open on taxiing and takeoff. then auto for the rest, exept if engine is overheated, just open it up fully and cut throttle abit. rest should be on auto.


it is easier than it looks. Hope u will enjoy it too.

cheers

A pice of cake.

jung0l
03-03-2004, 10:16 AM
thanks for that track reference Alexi.., i've been trying to track down tracks demonstrating correct Prop pitch usage to study for a while. Everytime I try to use it either I cook my engine or something else disasterous.

As a matter of fact, if anybody else (Maple Tiger maybe) could post some demonstrative Manual CEM tracks, it would be greatly appreciated.

Maple_Tiger
03-03-2004, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by jung0l:
thanks for that track reference Alexi.., i've been trying to track down tracks demonstrating correct Prop pitch usage to study for a while. Everytime I try to use it either I cook my engine or something else disasterous.

As a matter of fact, if anybody else (Maple Tiger maybe) could post some demonstrative Manual CEM tracks, it would be greatly appreciated.


I could but i dont normaly fly the Fw or BF109 using Manuel prop pitch. Not that i cant do it, i have and can do it but im no expert when it comes to using manuel prop pitch.

I mostly fly the P-47, P-51 and Fw190. With the Alied planes they just dont have Manuel prop pitch.

What type of plane did you want see in a track?

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/pd6c878f0006c224805da6c9645408b41/fb291d3e.jpg

Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

Maple_Tiger
03-03-2004, 11:06 AM
I dont know if you guys do this or not but when i go into a Zoom climb, or if i do a loop or go vertical i will close the rad. This reduses drag and will help a bit in Vertical manuvers.

Onence the plane starts to fall down to wards earth ill open rad all the way.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/pd6c878f0006c224805da6c9645408b41/fb291d3e.jpg

Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

jung0l
03-03-2004, 11:32 AM
Thanks for your response Maple Tiger, but I've just found a whole boatload of 109F4 tracks from the same guy that Alexi referred to.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~landmark/misc

I guess I can use these to learn for g14/K4's

Chuck_Older
03-03-2004, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by Alexi_Alx_Anova:
I've got to say, I'm puzzled by prop pitch. I leave it at 100% on takeoff and climb. When I level out, I may drop it down to 95 - 90% for cruise. If I turn it down any more in level flight, there is a noticable slowing of the plane. In dives, I'll drop it down to at the most 50% to avoid over stressing the engine. It looks like most planes like about 25,000 - 30,000 rpm. If I drop prop pitch anything lower than 50%, there is servere slowing of the plane so I reserve that for emergency dives. I've therefore never understood why there is all this prop pitch 'space' available when most of the time you use only 5 - 10% of it and sometimes use up to 50% of it.

Then the other day I downloaded a number of .ntrk files from someone on SimHQ who had posted them in a TrackIR thread. I was completely amazed. For 40 minutes this guy in a 109 was BnZ'ing a whole hoard of planes and never did he go above 80% prop pitch. At most he dropped down to 50%. He had the radiator shut most of the time and the throttle full forward and regulated the speed of his plane purely by adjusting prop pitch. And the plane just climbed and climbed! Even though he was turning and diving and all that, he was still climbing overall and with only 80% prop pitch. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I thought, "I've completely misinterpreted the use of prop pitch. I should use lower values like it was overdrive in a car" and so I tried it in a P-47 with predictable results....flys like a drunk duck. Am I a fool, or, dare I say it, is the 109 overmodeled?

Alexi

It's a little confusing...
The Luftwaffe planes have 'realistic' prop pitch. Go and fly a Bf 109 with manual prop pitch, set the throttle to100%, and then
put pitch at 100% and see what happens.

Now try it in an Allied plane..more than likely, the prop pitch is acting more like a governor than the way prop pitch works in say, a Bf109. Still useful, but it doesn't work the same way.

OK, back to what I was saying this morning:

RE: LUFTWAFFE AIRCRAFT SUCH AS BF-109 and WHETHER OR NOT THEY REALLY USED MANUAL PROP PITCH~

From Ulrich Steinhilper, Bf-109 pilot, 1940, 1st Gruppe, JG52. Quote:

"Unfortunately, I didn't have my new Yellow 4, which had an automatic-pitch propeller...because the plane was having an overhaul. But we had more planes than pilots, so I used my good old Yellow 2"

Clearly, this infers that his Bf-109,Yellow 2, the aircraft in which he was shot down, used manual pitch control, because he uses it to contrast the automatic pitch of the new plane he didn't have a chance to fly that day.

I don't know what model exactly, but it must have been a Bf-109E of some type. He says the new plane had automatic pitch, which means the old one didn't.

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

BerkshireHunt
03-03-2004, 04:12 PM
Steinhilper's 'Yellow 2' was a 109E4 with wing cannon (it is pictured on page 296) and manual pitch control. You can't really generalise about 109s at this time (1940)- there were many differences between machines.
On the same page is his previous aircraft 'Yellow 16' which is clearly a 109B or C powered by a Jumo engine. His diary records that he flew this machine over England for most of August 1940 against Spitfire Mk1s and Hurricane 1s (until I read this book I didn't realise the Germans used 109B and Cs during the BoB along with the Emil).
He remarks that his new aircraft "was much faster than my old '16' and I didn't have to keep over- revving it to keep up with the Chief."
He makes many references to using manual control of prop pitch to assist combat climb rate, decrease dive speed and allow a higher cruise speed across the English Channel.

Chuck_Older
03-03-2004, 04:35 PM
I have a very different book than you. This is from "Little Friends". It doesn't HAVE 296 pages, lol. I also have no picture of Steinhilper's aircraft. I guess this story has been related by him a couple different ways for several books...my quote is word for word what he is credited with saying in this book. Even the pause (...) is not my addition.

If you read my post again, I am not generalizing. I am making a specific comment on Steinhilper's Bf 109E, on the day he was shot down...that is why I used his specific aircraft as an example. A comment was made to the effect that no German fighters had manual pitch. I disagree. This model Bf-109 had manual pitch. Steinhilper also comments on the pitch control unit apparently being frozen at altitude. Nowhere do I say, "therefore all German fighters had manual pitch". My point is, some did have manual pitch. Thank you for backing that up :)

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash