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DangerDrago2015
03-28-2015, 03:32 PM
It's human nature to believe that being free and what not equals world prosperity. Well, that might not be true.

Supposedly the Assassins want to preserve the liberty they see in the world around them today. They think humanity is on the right track as its is, and will do anything to hinder the the rise of the New World Order. The Templars of course are the ones fuelling the dream of said Order.. But if the Assassins are preserving modern liberty, they're preserving a world where:

People murder each other
People do drugs
Countries make war on each other and do horrible things to people of their own nation and prisoners from other nations
Women are assaulted
People take risks and end up broke

And even if the Assassins still want some basic laws to stick around: how would they in force these? Murder people? Set up governing forces? Actually do anything that doesn't already happen? Sure they might insert some new, more responsible leaders, but I'm sure North Korea has had some pretty decent, benevolent leaders in it's past. Look at that country now. Same for Germany and Russia. They had some pretty good, perhaps Assassin inserted leaders before Hitler and Stalin.

Basically, the world today is pretty messed up. And instead of preserving current human society, is it not the duty of every man and woman to give their children a better future? Where there is no religion to provoke war, no malevolent desire to provoke crime, no social class system to provoke uprising. One council of decent, intelligent men and women could use the power of an ancient civilisation to make the world a better place and prevent harm from coming to humans? If you cannot see the benefit of aiding the Templar's goals, then I despair for our future!

Also, is it not more honourable to fight courageously and openly like a Templar than it is strike from the shadows like an Assassin. Is it not better to improve this world, no matter what the cost to the current generation, to make it better for the next? Think about it in the long term.

I'm not necessarily saying the ends justify the means, but sometimes logic and reason must take centre stage in our decisions as a race.

I know I'd bare the Mark of Cain. Would you?

pirate1802
03-28-2015, 03:53 PM
I do as well. I'd explain more but I'm in a rush so I'd elaborate LATER!

Assassin_M
03-28-2015, 04:23 PM
Where there is no religion to provoke war
Because that's totally the exclusive reason any war starts.

Namikaze_17
03-28-2015, 04:34 PM
And thus another has found the cross.

the_don7684
03-28-2015, 05:01 PM
I find myself kind of in the middle. I see both sides of the argument here. There is a need for order and control as well as the freedom and liberty to do what you like. We are but man. Susceptible to greed, lust, envy.....etc. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". Both the assassins and templars find themselves in a set of ideals of which they believe are for the betterment of humanity. We all have a different view of how the world works and should be governed.

Altair1789
03-28-2015, 05:15 PM
Basically, the world today is pretty messed up.

To be honest, it's probably better now than it ever was before the 20th century. You can't really just say "the world would be better off with complete dictatorship rather than democracy" It's really naďve. They both have their ups and downs that are sometimes completely unrelated. Honestly, I doubt many of us on these forums (if any) know enough and have the experience to wholeheartedly take a side


Because that's totally the exclusive reason any war starts.

I agree with the sarcasm here, religion really isn't the only reason war starts

I-Like-Pie45
03-28-2015, 05:19 PM
people agreed with the nazis communists and western imperialist capitalist dogs too

Shahkulu101
03-28-2015, 06:00 PM
Those that are 'Templar's' of this forum underestimate the consequences of a totalitarian society.

Y'all probably wouldn't be able to express your opinion on a public forum.

VestigialLlama4
03-28-2015, 06:12 PM
The idea of a bunch of (mostly) white men gathering around sharing drinks with the Lizard People (aka First Civ) doesn't strike me as a sane solution to any of the world's problems. Had it been left to the Templars, the Renaissance would never have happened, the America would never be founded. So based on what we see in the main games, I don't see how the Templars make any sense except as bad guys.

HDinHB
03-28-2015, 06:13 PM
Those that are 'Templar's' of this forum underestimate the consequences of a totalitarian society.

Y'all probably wouldn't be able to express your opinion on a public forum.

Well, if it was the "right" opinion...

RinoTheBouncer
03-29-2015, 12:48 AM
I know that a person can argue with and against both the Assassins and Templars, and I know that each side has enough flaws to make you look the other way, but if I'm to choose between freedom and control, I'd have to go with freedom, because with control, you're assigning one person or a group of people to make decisions for everyone. O.K., from the first glance, that may sound beneficial, but on what basis are these people chosen? voting? let's say 70% voted YES, what about the others? should they just pack up and leave to another planet even when they have as much right to live and practice their lifestyle as the others?

If these Templars use the Apple of Eden to control people and lead them to the greater good, what makes you so certain that the ones in charge are qualified enough to do that? what makes them better and wiser than all those people combined that they make decisions for them?

Regarding "where there's no religion to provoke war", is religion the only reason to start wars? wars have been waged throughout history for numerous reasons. Was the attack on Pearl Harbor motivated by religion? were the gruesome Hiroshima and Nagasaki attacks motivated by religion? were WWI and WWII waged because of religious beliefs? no. They were mainly about inquisitions, revolutions, freedom and dominance which would have happened regardless of what the people behind them worshiped.

Imagine yourself having moderators telling you "you cannot criticize AC. Only positive opinions are allowed because I think it's the right way" would you be happy about that? imagine you take that picture and have someone tell you "you cannot marry that person, because I believe so", "you cannot say that you dislike the president, because you must like him or die", "you cannot state a different opinion because our Order knows better". I'm sure you cannot accept that. We're all different and it's impossible to just use one magnet and focus us all in one direction. That's just impossible.

What type of utopia are you expecting to live in when any sense of disagreement with the system either results in your death or the use of an Apple of Eden to "change your mind"? and how is that any different from the First Civ. controlling humans which Abstergo called "enslaved humans and used them as a docile workforce".

SixKeys
03-29-2015, 02:45 AM
If these Templars use the Apple of Eden to control people and lead them to the greater good, what makes you so certain that the ones in charge are qualified enough to do that? what makes them better and wiser than all those people combined that they make decisions for them?


"Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Altair1789
03-29-2015, 02:56 AM
I think the fact of the matter is that neither side is 'better'. As I said before, there are ups and downs to both sides

Jexx21
03-29-2015, 04:34 AM
stop being a Loki

I'm Captain America and I'll beat your *** until my Iron Man comes in and helps me out and then Thor will kidnap you

HDinHB
03-29-2015, 07:55 AM
stop being a Loki

I'm Captain America and I'll beat your *** until my Iron Man comes in and helps me out and then Thor will kidnap you

I have thought his speech sounded like a Templar manifesto since I first heard it. There is a similar speech from the last Captain America movie that also sounds like it was copied from the Templar handbook.

Templar_Az
03-29-2015, 10:14 AM
I personally would go with the Templars. They actually have a goal in life which is to have peace in the world, and the pieces of Eden would make the world believe that they are happy therefore no one would feel oppressed; I don't think it would be too hard to find the right man to control the world since many of the Templars in the last moments of their life seem to show they actually do care about the Templar ideology, perhaps even after the world is made peaceful the controller can use the pieces of Eden on himself to make sure he does the right job and doesn't become corrupt.

Assassins on the other hand are just the criminals who kill the men who are working for peace (Templars).

If the Templars were successful then there would be no more crimes so you can say goodbye to evil things like war, murder, stealing, rape etc. where as with the Assassin ideology all these things will still occur all in the name of preserving free will.

btw, this does not reflect what kind of world I want in real life because in the real world Pieces of Eden don't exist; this is purely looking at it from the perspective of the games and not real world politics as some people like to do in these conversations.

I hope those who read this understood since my communication skills aren't the best, oh and Templars got money :cool:

IsAZebraACat
03-29-2015, 11:51 AM
Assassins are anarchists and Templars are fascists.

If you fully agree with either one, you're crazy. Full freedom vs. full control isn't even a debate in modern society, you need a little bit of both in the right context.

AssassinHMS
03-29-2015, 02:31 PM
People murder each other
People do drugs
Countries make war on each other and do horrible things to people of their own nation and prisoners from other nations
Women are assaulted
People take risks and end up broke


Lol, especially at the “women are assaulted” part, I have to admit I didn’t see that one coming.

Anyway, in the end, whether you choose Templars or Assassins, it’s all a matter of opinion but, you seem to think people can overcome their basic instincts…and that is pure fantasy.
Everything has advantages and disadvantages and there’s no such thing as a “bad” thing.
You seem to label things like “people murdering each other” as bad. That’s subjective and has no real weight. Objectively speaking, as long as 2 people exist, there won’t be peace. Murder is part of what nature is about and you can’t fight that.

As long as people are born, people will keep dying. All those things you consider to be “bad” or “negative” are necessary so that the other stuff you perceive as being “good” can exist.
That’s why the Templars can’t erase war, murder and all that stuff without erasing free will as well.
People will always kill each other, do drugs and hit women :p. Those aren’t “bad” things, they’re just things. Instead of being against them I think you should accept that and learn to live with them.



It’s better to accept the world the way it is and make an effort to understand it while remaining neutral, instead of dividing it in “good” and “bad” according to our subjective and biased view.





Also, is it not more honourable to fight courageously and openly like a Templar than it is strike from the shadows like an Assassin.
Hahaha, you sure crack me up.
Words like “honor” and (to a lesser extent) “courage” aren’t much more than euphemisms for “stupidity”. Just as it’s stupid to fight openly when it would probably be easier to strike from the shadows.
But that’s a whole new discussion.

avk111
03-29-2015, 03:25 PM
To OP,

What do you suggest then ? Do you want to be beaten and abused by the authorities and forced for doing what you dont want ?

Cause if the person holding that Authority is an jerk thats what you get i.e. templars. However if seeing that the person in authority can be reasonable then sure why not cooperate.

Its a two way road for everything

avk111
03-29-2015, 03:28 PM
Lol, especially at the “women are assaulted” part, I have to admit I didn’t see that one coming.

Anyway, in the end, whether you choose Templars or Assassins, it’s all a matter of opinion but, you seem to think people can overcome their basic instincts…and that is pure fantasy.
Everything has advantages and disadvantages and there’s no such thing as a “bad” thing.
You seem to label things like “people murdering each other” as bad. That’s subjective and has no real weight. Objectively speaking, as long as 2 people exist, there won’t be peace. Murder is part of what nature is about and you can’t fight that.

As long as people are born, people will keep dying. All those things you consider to be “bad” or “negative” are necessary so that the other stuff you perceive as being “good” can exist.
That’s why the Templars can’t erase war, murder and all that stuff without erasing free will as well.
People will always kill each other, do drugs and hit women :p. Those aren’t “bad” things, they’re just things. Instead of being against them I think you should accept that and learn to live with them.



It’s better to accept the world the way it is and make an effort to understand it while remaining neutral, instead of dividing it in “good” and “bad” according to our subjective and biased view.





Hahaha, you sure crack me up.
Words like “honor” and (to a lesser extent) “courage” aren’t much more than euphemisms for “stupidity”. Just as it’s stupid to fight openly when it would probably be easier to strike from the shadows.
But that’s a whole new discussion.


Just leave it for Darwinism

HiddenKiller612
03-30-2015, 04:14 AM
I personally would go with the Templars. They actually have a goal in life which is to have peace in the world, and the pieces of Eden would make the world believe that they are happy therefore no one would feel oppressed; I don't think it would be too hard to find the right man to control the world since many of the Templars in the last moments of their life seem to show they actually do care about the Templar ideology, perhaps even after the world is made peaceful the controller can use the pieces of Eden on himself to make sure he does the right job and doesn't become corrupt.

Assassins on the other hand are just the criminals who kill the men who are working for peace (Templars).

If the Templars were successful then there would be no more crimes so you can say goodbye to evil things like war, murder, stealing, rape etc. where as with the Assassin ideology all these things will still occur all in the name of preserving free will.

btw, this does not reflect what kind of world I want in real life because in the real world Pieces of Eden don't exist; this is purely looking at it from the perspective of the games and not real world politics as some people like to do in these conversations.

I hope those who read this understood since my communication skills aren't the best, oh and Templars got money :cool:
Also good bye to freedom of speech, thought, and the will to do anything other than what your masters command while being afraid of the consequences. They don't want peace, they want control. What do Warlords have? Control, they don't bring peace...So far templars have been nothing but pompous, uppity, power hungry, men and women... who are only looking to step on the worlds shoulders because it has a better view.

The take away from the Templar and Assassin conflict is that it is a balancing act.. One side never fully wins... It is a tug of war that has lasted for thousands of years. Neither side is correct in their beliefs... We just happen to be playing as the Assassins.....

Templar_Az
03-31-2015, 09:07 AM
Also good bye to freedom of speech, thought, and the will to do anything other than what your masters command while being afraid of the consequences. They don't want peace, they want control. What do Warlords have? Control, they don't bring peace...So far templars have been nothing but pompous, uppity, power hungry, men and women... who are only looking to step on the worlds shoulders because it has a better view.

Mate, I think your forgetting that there are Pieces of Eden, so you wouldn't be living in fear, negative emotions such as fear are completely removed. The Pieces of Eden can create peace and happiness between everyone, it would be like heaven on earth so why would people living in such happiness even want free speech, negative thoughts and have freewill to do other things?

Like I said before, people need to stop comparing it to real life since your forgetting that in AC there are Pieces of Eden, you wouldn't even feel oppressed.

Regarding what you said about the Templars being pompous, power hungry etc. this had nothing to do with the Templar ideology but rather just bad people who use the Templars for their own selfish gains, the Templars themselves look back in disgust at Cesare and his father and consider that time period a dark period in the history of the Templars. A noble Templar like Haytham who believes in this ideology can carry out the mission of peace successfully.

ShoryukenMan
03-31-2015, 07:09 PM
Mate, I think your forgetting that there are Pieces of Eden, so you wouldn't be living in fear, negative emotions such as fear are completely removed. The Pieces of Eden can create peace and happiness between everyone, it would be like heaven on earth so why would people living in such happiness even want free speech, negative thoughts and have freewill to do other things?

Like I said before, people need to stop comparing it to real life since your forgetting that in AC there are Pieces of Eden, you wouldn't even feel oppressed.

Regarding what you said about the Templars being pompous, power hungry etc. this had nothing to do with the Templar ideology but rather just bad people who use the Templars for their own selfish gains, the Templars themselves look back in disgust at Cesare and his father and consider that time period a dark period in the history of the Templars. A noble Templar like Haytham who believes in this ideology can carry out the mission of peace successfully.

If we're not supposed to compare it to real life, then what are we supposed to compare it too? Fantasy? That would make one hell of a boring video game, imo.

I don't side with one or the other fully, but I do tend to lean more towards the Assassins. You guys want technology to take away who you are, well you can keep your illusion of peace and happiness. All I know is, I like the freedom I have and I'm not willing to part with it for any kind of security. I'd gladly die than live in that kind of world.

Altair1789
03-31-2015, 07:52 PM
If we're not supposed to compare it to real life, then what are we supposed to compare it too? Fantasy? That would make one hell of a boring video game, imo.

I don't side with one or the other fully, but I do tend to lean more towards the Assassins. You guys want technology to take away who you are, well you can keep your illusion of peace and happiness. All I know is, I like the freedom I have and I'm not willing to part with it for any kind of security. I'd gladly die than live in that kind of world.

I think his point is that we shouldn't be using real world dictatorships and patterns to predict the outcome of what would happen if the Templars were in control, and honestly, I agree with him

If we're talking about real-life politics, complete dictatorship is a terrible idea, and so is complete anarchy

Will_Lucky
03-31-2015, 08:03 PM
I still walk a grey line, at the end of the day each side is just as bad as the other and well its so hard to choose between them.

Sorrosyss
04-01-2015, 01:13 PM
It is interesting when you look at their ultimate goals. Assassins want ultimate freedom, which is pretty much chaos in my mind. (anyone who has been to a lawless zone in real life knows what I speak of) Templars want ultimate order and control. Which is basically oppression and would leave to a stifled existence of slavery.

Ironically, it does appear we need both factions to prevent the other from ever succeeding. So in a way, you do have to believe in both.

Or just join the Instruments of The First Will, and accept Juno into your life. :p