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RedDeth
07-20-2004, 12:00 PM
wings still pop off on mustangs in level flight on deck at 650 if you turn more than slightly.

i think its the only plane that flying on deck straight and level if you turn your wing falls off.p51DNT.

guns maybe stronger? convergence is fixed for sure. jury still out if guns are now better or worse at kills than in 2.01

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RedDeth
07-20-2004, 12:00 PM
wings still pop off on mustangs in level flight on deck at 650 if you turn more than slightly.

i think its the only plane that flying on deck straight and level if you turn your wing falls off.p51DNT.

guns maybe stronger? convergence is fixed for sure. jury still out if guns are now better or worse at kills than in 2.01

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Gibbage1
07-20-2004, 12:03 PM
Your kidding, right?

BlackPhenix
07-20-2004, 12:05 PM
Just had the same experience at a much higher and more accurate speed. I think it may be messed up a bit though. Time will tell.

BlackShrike
07-20-2004, 02:07 PM
wings do fall off in level flight. on deck at 640 if you turn your plane in a P-51

Gibbage1
07-20-2004, 02:55 PM
RD. Whats your joystick settings? 100% all the way? It may be that. I know a lot of the 109 pilots fly 100%. So you touch your stick and get 100% deflection. That suddent movement may hit the 15G mark Oleg has set (only for the P-51 it seems).

Gib

Amanda_Hugnkiss
07-20-2004, 04:00 PM
Well I would hope so!! 650 at sea level is the speed of sound. Since the P-51 will break up during comprssibility (prior to reaching the speed of sound) you should be lucky you got to that speed.

SUPERAEREO
07-20-2004, 04:03 PM
Think they meant Kph not Mph...

S!



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Dunkelgrun
07-20-2004, 04:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Amanda_Hugnkiss:
Well I would hope so!! 650 at sea level is the speed of sound. Since the P-51 will break up during comprssibility (prior to reaching the speed of sound) you should be lucky you got to that speed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Errrmm, in-game 650 is kmh, not mph or knots.
Cheers!

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LEXX_Luthor
07-20-2004, 04:13 PM
No, Amanda_Hugnkiss is correct to assume 650 sound speed, as RedDeath never offered any units for his/her speed report. Sloppy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


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Fennec_P
07-20-2004, 07:20 PM
You all must just assume it is metric.

What else would it be? 650kts?

RedDeth
07-20-2004, 07:38 PM
i dont know of any prop in game that can do 650 mph on deck straight and level. whats that in kph anyway ?

the game is always referenced in kph normally to the best of my knowledge. can any plane take 650 mph as a prop?

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BSS_Vidar
07-20-2004, 08:00 PM
No... Mach 1 at sealevel is 721 mph on a standard temp and pressure day. i.e. 15 deg C, 29.92" Hg.

P-47 gets close in a dive though.. or it should. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BSS_Vidar

BennyMoore
07-20-2004, 10:14 PM
Two instances have been recorded in real life in which a P-38 Lightning hit the sound barrier. One of them was a post-war model with an ejection seat, and the pilot ejected when he noticed his wings rip off shortly before hitting the sound barrier. Then the aircraft exploded. The other pilot was not so fortunate and was instantly killed when he hit the sound barrier.

You can do this in the game, as well, but it's very hard to do. I've only done it once. You need a lot of altitude, and the right angle.

The P-38 Lightning has set the unbreakable record for highest speed reached in any circumstances by any piston engined fighter. Note that I am not claiming that it was the fastest piston engined fighter (I think that there were a few that were faster, like the La-7 and perhaps some models of FW-190), but this is an interesting little fact.

LeadSpitter_
07-21-2004, 12:16 AM
yup happened to me at 460 today in warclouds, just from appling rudder, its so random its scarey other times im able to reach 800kmph and while im climbing up from the dive the slightest bit of rudder will pop the wing off at 720. I dont get it the 190s and me262 pop off from excess g's but dont seem to shedd the wings from rudder just fast elevator movement or overspeed.

I also noticed the p51d doesnt seem to nose down in blackouts anymore which is a good thing. But the wing popping off unconsistancy is kinda silly to counter its super effective elevator. Just add some stick pressure or compressibility what ever oleg calls it to the p51 elevator instead of random wings popping off. Btw why doesnt the la and yak have the same problem which was a known problem at speeds above 630kmph.

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AFJ_Locust
07-21-2004, 12:35 AM
I realy think historicaly this didnt happen so much, I was doing 700 on the speed bar & rolled & the wings flew cleen off, somethings not right about that.

No other ac in the sim snaps wing like the 51 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Not whineing just saying it doesnt seem right

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Dolemite-
07-21-2004, 12:56 AM
Sounds like a VVS conspiracy, but maybe I've said too much...

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alarmer
07-21-2004, 01:11 AM
This is indeed due to extra effective elevator that P51 has.

Just put P51 and 109 into a dive from 5000m or so. As you reach 600 IAS or more try yanking the stick back as hard as you can.

There is a huge difference, P51 elevators are many times more effective. Resulting wing damage due to excessive G forces. You just cant pull those kinda G:s in any other plane.

Just my opinion, I think Oleg gave bit too much elevator for P51 since in high speed it seems there is more bad than good from these super elevators. But then again Iam no expert on P51 just compared it to other planes in AEP.

Maybe somebody has a chart stash somewhere and could post bit information about P51 and say 109 elevators http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LuftLuver
07-21-2004, 01:20 AM
In 2.01 at least there was a ryhme and reason to the wing snapping. Too much elevator in a high speed dive and you are history,

Now, it's just silly and random. Oleg, please go back to 2.01 wing-shedding code. At least it was a bit more realistic.

Rudder input now pops off wing? Wings snapping off flying straight and level on pull up? Not realistic. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

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WUAF_Badsight
07-21-2004, 01:34 AM
it aint cool no more

random is the word

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Gibbage1
07-21-2004, 02:48 AM
I myself have never had a P-51's wings snap off. About 20 mins ago I was in a Split-S and they popped right off!

Note. I fly P-38's and P-63's most of the time. Those two aircraft you dont "yank around". I energy fly and use soft gentle corrections and not yank and bank. I have NEVER had a wing fall off till 2.04 and it happened on my first mustang flight since the upgrade. Something is rather fishy.

alarmer
07-21-2004, 03:03 AM
Here is the chart CHDT posted a while ago:

http://www.turixline.fi/Tomas/Swiss%20P51.jpg

I understanded that this test was meant to show how much P-51D wings can withstand G:s.

Maybe you can find it useful http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

NegativeGee
07-21-2004, 03:10 AM
Does anyone have a wing snapping track?

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Günther Rall

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AnalFissure
07-21-2004, 03:23 AM
Just adding to the pile, here.


Was flying the P-51C around today while I was giving the new patch a spin, and I was suprised to see my wing pop off from regular maneuvering. Thought I had been shot, at first, but then quickly realized otherwise.

DaBallz
07-21-2004, 03:39 AM
We all know P-51s were over rated.
Weak airframes and shoddy workmanship
resulted in frequent structural failures.....

No, it's the superior product of the Bolshivek
revolution that causes the problem.
We expect the product of the deccedent western
nations to equal the superior Soviet equipment.

I get it, it's all clear now.

Here's a link to "Dago Red" racing page.
http://www.warbirdaeropress.com/articles/Dago2003/DagoRed.htm
they made one run at the 15km piston air speed record
at an un official 537mph! that's in level flight.

One point to make here.
NO prop plane EVER got near MACH1 in one piece.
Truth is that over 600mph is near impossible
even going straight down.

Truth is that the air racer "Dago Red" managed
over 490mph on a lap around the pylons at RENO
and the wings stayed on.

This sim is rapidly degenerating into a real
bad joke, sorry Oleg, your blowing it big time.

Da...

Atzebrueck
07-21-2004, 03:46 AM
It seems you have found another topic to whine about :P.

When do you learn, that all planes lose their wings, if you only turn sharp enough ?

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Aaron_GT
07-21-2004, 03:47 AM
"The P-38 Lightning has set the unbreakable record for highest speed reached in any circumstances by any piston engined fighter. "

Er... no.

Aaron_GT
07-21-2004, 03:49 AM
"Truth is that the air racer "Dago Red" managed
over 490mph on a lap around the pylons at RENO
and the wings stayed on."

I don't think you can compare a rebuilt machine, with lots of extra maintenance, and who knows how many replaced parts, doing pylon racing which involves anticipated turns with a WW2 service plane executing unanticipated sharp maneouvers. Doing so would be like comparing a Ford Escort modified for rallying with one on a forecourt somewhere.

Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-21-2004, 04:06 AM
are the wings breaking in a level flight, or when pullling G's ???

well, because if you claimed for better elevator responce at Highspeed, well, no wonder that you can over G the structure and break the wings-

now, if it happends on level flight, we have a problem.

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Aaron_GT
07-21-2004, 04:08 AM
Ok.. done some testing and it seems to be related to the sensitivity of the elevators (and it could also be related to the updating of damage models on some planes and not others).

The P51 is not the only plane to suffer from wing snaps at circa 650kph - the Ki-84 also suffers from it of the set I tested (which included the P38, P47, P63, Yak9UT, 190A8, D9, Ta152)

The P51 and Ki-84 seem to have the most responsive elevators at 650kph, and seem to the ones that suffer the wings snapping off. But it only occurs if I suddenly apply 100% elevator deflection. If applying less than this, it will pull through maneouvers (e.g. out of a dive) without shedding a wing.

Since violent maneouvers at high speed were a known issue with the P51 then it doesn't seem out of the realms of possibility. Maybe it is a little overdone, but then the elevators of the P51 are remarkably effective. (In a P38J test I couldn't pull it out of the dive at all...)

Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-21-2004, 05:01 AM
well.. for sure one can't whine for more elevator response at high speed, and than whine for the wing over G it brings with it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ps: thx for the testing Aaron, very interesting.

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Maple_Tiger
07-21-2004, 05:02 AM
Historicaly, the P-51 pilots never attempted any manuevers beyond 650km/h for fear of structural failer...lol

Knowing this, the FW pilots would keep there speed up to 700km/h + when in combat manuevers. lol

90% of all P-51 pilot deaths where cuased from the wing popping off phenomenom.

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Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-21-2004, 05:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>90% of all P-51 pilot deaths where cuased from the wing popping off phenomenom.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

is that true or are you ironicle ?

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WUAF_Badsight
07-21-2004, 05:20 AM
hes "ironicle" dude

as is most other MT posts

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Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-21-2004, 05:22 AM
oh well.. thx Badsight. feel better now.

but I still repeat that statement.

One can't whine for better (exessive?) elevator response at high speed, and than complain for the OVER G that comes with it. its pure physic-

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VVS-Manuc
07-21-2004, 06:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Merlin (FZG_Immel):
oh well.. thx Badsight. feel better now.

but I still repeat that statement.

One can't whine for better (exessive?) elevator response at high speed, and than complain for the OVER G that comes with it. its pure physic-

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The best solution is, that Oleg should reduce the P-51's elevator response at high speed, so there is less danger for loosing the wings

Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-21-2004, 06:26 AM
the best solution is that people once stop to complain about this or that, and learn to fly http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Atzebrueck
07-21-2004, 06:48 AM
yepp

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FA_Maddog
07-21-2004, 08:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Merlin (FZG_Immel):
oh well.. thx Badsight. feel better now.

but I still repeat that statement.

One can't whine for better (exessive?) elevator response at high speed, and than complain for the OVER G that comes with it. its pure physic-

------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.haute-voltige.com/virtualHVteam/concept.htm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? Who was whining for that? I keyed in "elevator response" and got mostly posts for Germans planes.

You also said "are the wings breaking in a level flight, or when pullling G's ???"

The P-51 had an allowable flight limit load factor of eight g and of 12 g ultimate breaking load factor. America's Hundred_Thousand page: 346

NorrisMcWhirter
07-21-2004, 09:58 AM
Hi,

What version of Mustang are we talking about? I've had a wing come off a D once in quite a few outings; even where I've given it some stick.

I know that the Go229 splits in half if you yank the stick when at speed...is that any different now?

Cheers,
Norris

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Aaron_GT
07-21-2004, 11:43 AM
There WERE complaints that the elevator response was insufficient, but even more so with regard to the 109. As to whether the response has changed I don't know, or if it just that G limits are now modelled.

I was testing the C. It seems to have very responsive elevators. With the Yak pulling full joystick deflection only changes its attitude slowly. I'd need to look at externals to see if it is stick force modelling or not. With the Ki or 51 the attitude rapidly changes quickly followed by the wings falling off.

RedDeth
07-21-2004, 12:06 PM
wings popping off on mustang is not related to elevator response.

with very little elevator at speeds of 650 in dive or flying level on deck the wings pop off. if you use lots of elevator this can make it worse. but with much less elevator than other planes the wings fall off

not at maximum elevator. not at half elevator...at minimal elevator response the wings come off . the only way to avoid it is to basically use almost zero elevator . equal about to engaging combat flaps and hoping that is enough to pull you out of a dive alone.

wings popping off in level flight on deck at 640 just because you roll and not using elevator is not right

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Matz0r
07-21-2004, 12:09 PM
Don't yank the stick at such high speeds. Wings will come off any plane with decent elevator authority, not only your precious P-51.

http://www.pfy.nu/tmp/fw3.jpg

purzel08
07-21-2004, 12:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atzebrueck:
It seems you have found another topic to whine about :P.

When do you learn, that all planes lose their wings, if you only turn sharp enough ?

my skins:
http://www.vow-hq.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don´t forget the .50s. Some will never stop whining until every .50s bullet has the impact of a mk108. Wow...6x30mmm that rulezzzz http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

greetings...

Aaron_GT
07-21-2004, 01:36 PM
"not at maximum elevator. not at half elevator...at minimal elevator response the wings come of"

What stick settings are you using, RedDeth? I have no problem with gentle inputs at 650 to 700 IAS if I use gentle inputs. My stick inputs are in a flattened U curve.

Matz0r
07-21-2004, 02:00 PM
So, I tried to reproduce this, at first I couldn't get the wing to break off. I tried increasing speed but all I would get was a very long blackout. Then I tried to trim nose up a couple of notches and wing would come off on the 5th attempt with the P51. Same with the Fw190D-9, aircraft trimmed level (before dive) and nothing - trim positive and wing comes off:

http://www.pfy.nu/tmp/wingbrk.jpg

trim on a slider anyone? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gibbage1
07-21-2004, 02:55 PM
Matz0r. How did you get that graph?

Dire_Wolf_1
07-21-2004, 03:34 PM
I have broken the speed of sound several times in Forgotten Battles but never lived to tell about it. They need to add a sonic boom and stuff because even if you are about to die it should still happen.

Matz0r
07-21-2004, 03:35 PM
I used my own perlmodule for reading device links, I took that data and fed it into a dbm databse, from there I could extract data whichever way I wanted it and feed it too any plotter applocation. The one im using atm is pretty crappy, so I'll have to write a script for gnuplot now also.... sooon


http://cpan.uwinnipeg.ca/module/Games::IL2Device::Link

Maple_Tiger
07-21-2004, 03:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Merlin (FZG_Immel):
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>90% of all P-51 pilot deaths where cuased from the wing popping off phenomenom.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

is that true or are you ironicle ?

------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------
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Yup, Ironical.


I have found so far that if you stay at 3000m or higher, you can yank on the old stick as hard as you want.

Someone mentioned using some trim and ajusting the joystick settings. Well, this does seem to help some. Less likly to lose your wing when you pull out of a high speed dive. However, it is still easy to do.

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_VR_ScorpionWorm
07-21-2004, 03:48 PM
Im sure this is modelled in the game but.....any or you poeple heard of 'structural integrety'? A plane can only handle soo much stress on the airframe. But like I said I dont know if its modelled in the game so fell free to flame me for my ignorance. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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Owlsphone
07-21-2004, 08:29 PM
I was surprised to hear the complaints about the P51s wings coming off. One of the first things that I tested after the patch was the P51s dive capabilities. I accidentally went to 750 (on the speed bar) in a dive after someone and gently pulled out of it. I was thinking Whoa maybe its better. So I fly away from the combat zone for testing. Time and time again I was able to pull out of dives that exceeded 750 - One time I pulled out at 880. Gentle inputs of course...

Pre-patch, control surfaces would break off at 650 km/h, let alone in a dive above 700 or 800.

But, later on that game I got into another fight and at 600 km/h my wing snapped right off. It was a big WTF moment. Could the structural failure be somewhat random?

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BennyMoore
07-21-2004, 09:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:
NO prop plane EVER got near MACH1 in one piece.
Truth is that over 600mph is near impossible
even going straight down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apparently not for the P-38. Although its wings did come off before reaching seven hundred and twenty eight miles per hour, most everything held together long enough for it to reach that speed.

The P-38 was noted to dive so fast that paint would peel off.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
"The P-38 Lightning has set the unbreakable record for highest speed reached in any circumstances by any piston engined fighter. "

Er... no.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, yes... No other piston engined fighter has reached seven hundred and twenty eight miles per hour. ...Ever, under any circumstances. The P-38 has. ...Twice.

About the P-51; I don't like it in real life all that much, and I think it may be overmodelled in the game a tad, but the fact is that the P-51's wings can come off in maneuvers and other aircraft's can't. That's not right. All aircraft should have this problem, although perhaps not as extreme as it is now.

Another thing we should have is accumulative airframe stress, like in Red Baron 3D. You may get out of that dive this time, but next time you may not be so lucky! That's the way it should be.

By the way, I've never managed to dewing a Mustang, and I tried pretty hard. I used default trim, which is takeoff trim. I've dived to seven hundred and yanked the stick in all directions, keeping it roughly coordinated with pedals. Nothing happened. I know it happens, though, because I have Mustang pilots shed their wings when diving after me.

WUAF_Badsight
07-21-2004, 10:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
but the fact is that the P-51's wings can come off in maneuvers and other aircraft's can't. That's not right. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

not true

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heywooood
07-21-2004, 10:48 PM
C'mon P-51 guys - you cant expect to have perfect .50 cals AND wings that stay on in a 600+ kt power dive, can you?... And Spits overheat in the desert even with good dust filters...don't they?...yes. they do.



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BennyMoore
07-21-2004, 10:52 PM
I mean, I can tear the wings off of any aircraft, but I've never, I repeat ever, torn the wings off of an aircraft because of maneuvers. The only time I have ever torn wings off of an aircraft is after I've long past its maximum speed, and even then, I get plenty of warning. First my control surfaces go, then perhaps a stabilizer or two, and then there goes the wing.

I've lost a wing on the P-38 at one thousand kilometers per hour or so. I've lost a wing on the BF-109 G-2 at eight hundred and fifty. I've lost a wing on the Lag-3 at seven hundred something. I've never lost a wing on any aircraft below seven hundred, even when I pull all kinds of ridiculous maneuvers that should make the poor plane lose its wings.

Other aircraft need good stress damage, too.

heywooood
07-21-2004, 11:03 PM
well I think it is overdue... these planes were built tough for the most part... but we have to be realistic. They were not made of titanium. They came apart or failed catastophically at times during radical manoevering. I think eventually it will be modelled into all aircraft, but it is a huge task and cannot be done all at once. Besides - the community whine must be evaluated - if the majority says its ok as long as all planes are equal or fail as they should (some planes were tougher than others after all) then I suppose the devs will continue to patch other planes to fail structurally as appropriate for each airframe. If - on the other hand we dont want too much realism in our sim.. well they would likely abandon the project.



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WUAF_Badsight
07-21-2004, 11:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:

Other aircraft need good stress damage, too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"other" Aircraft do Benny

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heywooood
07-21-2004, 11:29 PM
http://www.j-aircraft.com/artwork/caldera/shindenraytraced.jpg

hey Wuafie !!! this plane didnt come apart much.



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LEXX_Luthor
07-21-2004, 11:36 PM
BennyMoore:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I've never lost a wing on any aircraft below seven hundred [km/hr]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I lose wings and parts all the time on aircraft diving even below 500km/hr IAS.

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BS87
07-22-2004, 12:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maple_Tiger:


I have found so far that if you stay at 3000m or higher, you can yank on the old stick as hard as you want.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I learned along time ago that at 3000m in FB, there is a "Barrier" you can dive at 800+ in the jug sometimes, fine, above 3000m. Hit the 3k "barrier" though, and stuff comes off.

BennyMoore
07-22-2004, 12:44 AM
I want a simulation that is exactly like being there, even if it's extremely difficult. That's not possible, though, so I'd like the next best thing, which is a simulation that comes as close as possible to the real thing. However, I do not want a game that throws in things to make it harder than it was in real life in a vain attempt to make up for the difficult things that happened in real life that cannot be modelled in a simulation.

That's my general view, and isn't saying anything about the P-51 wings falling off. As I said, I've never had the problem with any aircraft, and have only seen it happen to other people when they are flying the P-51. So, I figure it's either unique to the P-51, or the P-51 is far more prone to having it happen.

So far I've seen six P-51s lose a wing or two when diving after me, and I've seen no other aircraft do it.

WUAF_Badsight
07-22-2004, 01:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:

hey Wuafie !!! this plane didnt come apart much.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

dammit Heywooood , why you got to tease me like that dude http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


its not like ill ever get to use it in my favourite plane game

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Aaron_GT
07-22-2004, 01:15 AM
" So, I figure it's either unique to the P-51"

It's not unique to the P51 - it happens with the Ki84 and it also happened to me in a P80 pulling some ceazy manoeuvers at very high speed.

NorrisMcWhirter
07-22-2004, 06:22 AM
Rgr, Aaron - the Ki84 does shed wings as does the P80 *and* the Go229 (it splits); the latter I've seen more of, on average.

So, this is far from confined to the P51.

Cheers,
Norris

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VMF513_Sandman
07-22-2004, 07:04 AM
oleg had said that now all aircraft has been set to a 15g limit. if g limit is exceeded, then it'll be very bad karma for the bird in question http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif