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XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 03:18 AM
Sometimes we should take a look at the way the Russians fought. When we Americans brought what was it, 70 B-17s over to show our good intentions, and with an escort of twenty five P-51s, what do the Germans do? They send a bombing raid over. Hey, no big surprise there, but what did the Rusiians do? It was in the middle of the night. The Russians just refused to sent any protection up. When the American CO offered to send his 51s up, the Russians flat out refused. So we lost around 40 bombers and a few men. The Russians could have let us spring a big victory, but alas... What do you guys think?

The Young Lions in the Forest suffer and lack, But thoser who know the Lord Shall not want of any good thing. Keep your tongue from Evil and your lips from speaking deciet. Depart from evil, do good and pursue it!

>Psalms

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 03:18 AM
Sometimes we should take a look at the way the Russians fought. When we Americans brought what was it, 70 B-17s over to show our good intentions, and with an escort of twenty five P-51s, what do the Germans do? They send a bombing raid over. Hey, no big surprise there, but what did the Rusiians do? It was in the middle of the night. The Russians just refused to sent any protection up. When the American CO offered to send his 51s up, the Russians flat out refused. So we lost around 40 bombers and a few men. The Russians could have let us spring a big victory, but alas... What do you guys think?

The Young Lions in the Forest suffer and lack, But thoser who know the Lord Shall not want of any good thing. Keep your tongue from Evil and your lips from speaking deciet. Depart from evil, do good and pursue it!

>Psalms

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 03:24 AM
If the story is true, why blame the Russians for fooling a Noble sucker. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Put it like this, would an Air Force General Patton (if such a thing existed) have agreed to shuttling his bombers to Russia.

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 03:25 AM
what the hell are you talking about?

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U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 03:27 AM
Exactly, they should have picked up where the Germans left off and conquered Russia. It was silly to try and help them, since Russia was already at war with the US, and apparently from that story, they already knew it in advance of the end of the war.

Look what it got the USA in the long run. Another dictator trying to take over Europe, a cold war, and a couple hot ones. And Russia today? A bankrupt nation and ethnic hodgepodge that will surely be a source of violence and unrest for the next century or two.

That said, IBTL.


Message Edited on 10/20/0308:35PM by StG77_Fennec

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 04:28 AM
kinda off topic but does anyone in the world notice all the conflicts the us is involved against they use russian weapons. And all russias conflicts their enemy uses US weapons.

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XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 04:31 AM
I'm sure there were quite a few.....

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XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 04:34 AM
CrazyBell wrote:
- Sometimes we should take a look at the way the
- Russians fought. When we Americans brought what was
- it, 70 B-17s over to show our good intentions, and
- with an escort of twenty five P-51s, what do the
- Germans do? They send a bombing raid over. Hey, no
- big surprise there, but what did the Rusiians do?
- It was in the middle of the night. The Russians
- just refused to sent any protection up. When the
- American CO offered to send his 51s up, the Russians
- flat out refused. So we lost around 40 bombers and
- a few men. The Russians could have let us spring a
- big victory, but alas... What do you guys think?


I remember reading a little bit about the B-17 shuttle flights to Russia. They flew from Italy and England during the summer of 1944. It was the 95th and 390th Bomb Group. They flew out of Poltava. They bombed Berlin because Poltava was closer than England and they could carry more bombs. I also remember reading something about the Germans bombing the airfield, but I never heard of anything that the Russians did. The whole operation only lasted a few months.

Maybe the Russians were still made at the U.S. for briefly invading them in 1918 after the revolution. I have a feeling you may have ignited a fire with this post/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Don't get me started. I have a few issues with the Russians myself, no offense Oleg, but I'm going to try to be good. Hopefully I won't get drawn into this debate. I guess it will depend on what others post.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Man will never truly be free until the last politician has been strangled with the entrails of the last priest. "Voltaire"

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 04:41 AM
The 332nd 325th and I think the 31st GS were also inon that along with the 81st a P-38 squadron...I think there were two P-38 squadrons that actually took part in that but I cant remember the other one.

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XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 04:42 AM
The Russian commander sounds like a smart man, while the American CO sounds rather bombastic./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Sending "day" fighter pilots up at night would be suicide for them, especially in a strange local. The Russian AA would be firing at any a/c in the sky, since they only expected German a/c up there.

Why did the Americans let a German recon a/c tail them to their Russian base? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

The mission was one of the 'Shuttle' missions. The Russians had more KIA/WIA than the Americans did. The day after the raid the Russian 'peasants' swept the area for un-exploded bombs.



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"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 04:54 AM
From one story I read this USA bomber pilot was watching a pair of woman P~39 "mechanics" work on their planes in the sunset when that Heinkel spy plane came over. He freaked when the women jumped into the P~39s and took off after the Heinkel. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

No way they could catch it at hi level starting from ground though.

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 05:18 AM
Just to keep a little perspective, maybe. Not referring directly upon this particular scenario, but Joseph Stalin had ultimate power of authority over Russia's armed forces. After the German military, he was their worst enemy.

Our cold war was largely against Soviet totalitarian leadership and brainwashed citizens.

Hawgdog
10-21-2003, 05:24 AM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:

- No way they could catch it at hi level starting from
- ground though.


yeah? In FB they could!!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 02:57 PM
StG77_Fennec wrote:

- And Russia today? A bankrupt
- nation and ethnic hodgepodge that will surely be a
- source of violence and unrest for the next century
- or two.
-
-

You have no idea what is the political and economical situation in Russia, do you?

I have impression, guys, that most of you are still in the cold war, or you were brainwashed to hard.

Yes, Russian economy is not in the best condition right now. But, unlike US and most European countries, the levels of its development are high.

Russia is still a manufacture of the most sophisticated weapons in the world and hold the second market share right after US. All countries, in which US fights are equipped Russian build weapons not because Russians do not like us, but because market is was divided long time ago. NTO countries would never buy weapons from Russia, because US control them. So the only option they have is Russia and who else .? Who else produce modern weapons?

And finally, you can find in the stores shirts, pants, and other stuff, produced, for example in China. You will not find the crap like this produced in Russia, but you buy game software as IL2 and Lock On, produced in Russia - creative products.

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 03:01 PM
maxim26 wrote:
- You have no idea what is the political and
- economical situation in Russia, do you?
-
- I have impression, guys, that most of you are still
- in the cold war, or you were brainwashed to hard.
-
- Yes, Russian economy is not in the best condition
- right now. But, unlike US and most European
- countries, the levels of its development are high.
-
- Russia is still a manufacture of the most
- sophisticated weapons in the world and hold the
- second market share right after US. All countries,
- in which US fights are equipped Russian build
- weapons not because Russians do not like us, but
- because market is was divided long time ago. NTO
- countries would never buy weapons from Russia,
- because US control them. So the only option they
- have is Russia and who else .? Who else produce
- modern weapons?
-
- And finally, you can find in the stores shirts,
- pants, and other stuff, produced, for example in
- China. You will not find the crap like this produced
- in Russia, but you buy game software as IL2 and Lock
- On, produced in Russia - creative products.
-


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif (insert thumbs up smiley here)



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XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 03:17 PM
-
- Our cold war was largely against Soviet totalitarian
- leadership and brainwashed citizens.

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/flamethrower-boat.jpg

Haha, maybe it is you who are brainwashed. Did you ever stop and think what threat, exactly, was posed by our"brainwashed" citizens? Things are not always as simple as they say on television.

Hawgdog
10-21-2003, 03:18 PM
maxim26 wrote:

- You have no idea what is the political and
- economical situation in Russia, do you?
-
- I have impression, guys, that most of you are still
- in the cold war, or you were brainwashed to hard.


Dont lump us all in that basket matey!
Long tough road your country's on.
Cant be fixed in months what took years to break, eh?

~S~

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XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 05:36 PM
arcadeace wrote:
- Just to keep a little perspective, maybe. Not
- referring directly upon this particular scenario,
- but Joseph Stalin had ultimate power of authority
- over Russia's armed forces. After the German
- military, he was their worst enemy.
-
- Our cold war was largely against Soviet totalitarian
- leadership and brainwashed citizens.
-
-

Too right.

A lot of history-ignorant Americans are quick to say dumb things about Russia. The fact of the matter is: prior to WWII, and especially during the American Civil war, we and Russia were great allies.

For those who are interested in actually READING about history, you'll find that the Russian navy was a great help to the US during the Civil War. You'll also find that the US was a great help to industry in Russia during the time of our own Industrial Revolution.

The misunderstanding between Russia and the US was created by Stalin.



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_____ | _____
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./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 05:40 PM
I`m going to be quiet on this one, really quiet /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
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"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 05:43 PM
Do you care to actually back your claims to being techologically more advanced than the US and Europe?

oh no, we buy maddux games and cloths from China so that is somehow relevant to this thread. How is that McDonalds doing over there? hey, what about that Intel/AMD computer you are most likely posting from? Where did that come from?
oFZo wrote:
-
- maxim26 wrote:
-- You have no idea what is the political and
-- economical situation in Russia, do you?
--
-- I have impression, guys, that most of you are still
-- in the cold war, or you were brainwashed to hard.
--
-- Yes, Russian economy is not in the best condition
-- right now. But, unlike US and most European
-- countries, the levels of its development are high.
--
-- Russia is still a manufacture of the most
-- sophisticated weapons in the world and hold the
-- second market share right after US. All countries,
-- in which US fights are equipped Russian build
-- weapons not because Russians do not like us, but
-- because market is was divided long time ago. NTO
-- countries would never buy weapons from Russia,
-- because US control them. So the only option they
-- have is Russia and who else .? Who else produce
-- modern weapons?
--
-- And finally, you can find in the stores shirts,
-- pants, and other stuff, produced, for example in
-- China. You will not find the crap like this produced
-- in Russia, but you buy game software as IL2 and Lock
-- On, produced in Russia - creative products.
--
-
-
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif (insert thumbs up
- smiley here)
-
-
-
-
- <center><img
- src="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.bryant3/ETS
- igHolland.gif">
-
- 'Smoke and a pancake?'</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 06:00 PM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- kinda off topic but does anyone in the world notice
- all the conflicts the us is involved against they
- use russian weapons. And all russias conflicts their
- enemy uses US weapons.
-

Let's see here, "all russias conflicts..." Hmm...well, let's start post-Civil War:

Sino-Soviet conflict (1929)-not sure about this one, probably a mish-mash of opposing weapons

Soviet-Japanese conflict-opponents use Japanese weapons

Finland-opponents use mostly Euro weapons

WW2-opponents use German, Italian, Japanese, assorted Axis weapons

Korea (sort of)-I'll give you this one, although Russia wasn't formally fighting

Hungary-opponents use Soviet, leftover WW2 weapons

Czechoslovakia-opponents use indigenous/Soviet weapons

Sino-Soviet Border Conflict-opponents use Chinese weapons

Afghanistan-opponents generally use Soviet or Euro weapons with the exception of U.S. supplied Stinger missiles

Chechnya-opponents generally use Soviet/Russian weapons.



--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg


Message Edited on 10/21/0308:40PM by A.K.Davis

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 06:15 PM
CrazyBell wrote:
- Sometimes we should take a look at the way the
- Russians fought. When we Americans brought what was
- it, 70 B-17s over to show our good intentions, and
- with an escort of twenty five P-51s, what do the
- Germans do? They send a bombing raid over. Hey, no
- big surprise there, but what did the Rusiians do?
- It was in the middle of the night. The Russians
- just refused to sent any protection up. When the
- American CO offered to send his 51s up, the Russians
- flat out refused. So we lost around 40 bombers and
- a few men. The Russians could have let us spring a
- big victory, but alas... What do you guys think?
-
- The Young Lions in the Forest suffer and lack, But
- thoser who know the Lord Shall not want of any good
- thing. Keep your tongue from Evil and your lips from
- speaking deciet. Depart from evil, do good and
- pursue it!
-
- >Psalms

Hmmm, a lot of things happened a long time ago, apart from a hit and run post to incite some flames, what is the point of your thread ?

Im not a christian, but perhaps you should re read your sig mate.





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</center>


Message Edited on 10/21/0306:16PM by Soapy_112th

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 06:38 PM
CrazyBell wrote:
- Sometimes we should take a look at the way the
- Russians fought. ... What do you guys think?

I don't know where you're goin on this one - except on a big troll.

From what I've read, the Soviet leaders, staring with Stalin, were very suspicious of the American. There were also a lot of logistical problems with the overflight missions.

So who knows. Maybe the VVS command didn't want a bunch of P-51s flying about at night where you couldn't keep close tabs on their whereabouts. Or for political/tactical reasons, they didn't want the P-51s performing anything other than the appoved mission. Plus, considering the losses during the war, they probably didn't get too excited about losing another 40 bombers.

Which makes me wonder, considering the innumerable number of crimes, atrocities and mistakes that occured during the war on all sides, why you decided this was so notable?

My impressions of the last two months revolve around dawns. Pink dawns, grey dawns, misty, rainy and windy dawns, but always dawns; first light. Shadowy Spitfires and quietness . . . . Geoffrey Wellum, First Light.

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 06:41 PM
StG77_Fennec wrote:
- Exactly, they should have picked up where the
- Germans left off and conquered Russia. It was silly
- to try and help them, since Russia was already at
- war with the US, and apparently from that story,
- they already knew it in advance of the end of the
- war.
-
- Look what it got the USA in the long run. Another
- dictator trying to take over Europe, a cold war, and
- a couple hot ones. And Russia today? A bankrupt
- nation and ethnic hodgepodge that will surely be a
- source of violence and unrest for the next century
- or two.
-

What unrest are you talking about? Chechnya? Americans were criticizing Russia for their actions in Chechnya, but they shut up after Sep 11 and send their own troops to take care of their own Chechnya, Iraq that is.

You wanna conquer Russia? Go ahead. You'll get your *** kicked big time.



http://www.uploadit.org/files/131003-361067-med.jpg


"One day there is certain to be another order of the Soviet Union. It will be the Order of Zhukov, and that order will be prized by every man who admires courage, vision, fortitude, and determination in a soldier". -Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1945

Thera
10-21-2003, 06:52 PM
Brian Eno wrote a nice little piece about the differences between Russian and US propaganda. Here's the exerpt.

"When I first visited Russia, in 1986, I made friends with a musician whose father had been Brezhnev's personal doctor. One day we were talking about life during 'the period of stagnation' - the Brezhnev era. 'It must have been strange being so completely immersed in propaganda,' I said.

'Ah, but there is the difference. We knew it was propaganda,' replied Sacha.

That is the difference. Russian propaganda was so obvious that most Russians were able to ignore it. They took it for granted that the government operated in its own interests and any message coming from it was probably slanted - and they discounted it.

In the West the calculated manipulation of public opinion to serve political and ideological interests is much more covert and therefore much more effective. Its greatest triumph is that we generally don't notice it - or laugh at the notion it even exists. We watch the democratic process taking place - heated debates in which we feel we could have a voice - and think that, because we have 'free' media, it would be hard for the Government to get away with anything very devious without someone calling them on it.

It takes something as dramatic as the invasion of Iraq to make us look a bit more closely and ask: 'How did we get here?' How exactly did it come about that, in a world of Aids, global warming, 30-plus active wars, several famines, cloning, genetic engineering, and two billion people in poverty, practically the only thing we all talked about for a year was Iraq and Saddam Hussein? Was it really that big a problem? Or were we somehow manipulated into believing the Iraq issue was important and had to be fixed right now - even though a few months before few had mentioned it, and nothing had changed in the interim."...

-----------------------------------------


Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 07:06 PM
Kampfmeister wrote:
-
- Maybe the Russians were still made at the U.S. for
- briefly invading them in 1918 after the revolution.



/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 07:16 PM
Totaly agree with Thera

War in Iraq isn't the fist. To add to examples of Western hidden propaganda I would like to remind you people about other conflicts US was in:

US support of Batista (not sure I spelled his name correctly), Cuban dictator not better nor worst then Castro. The only difference is Batista's policy was convenient for US. When Castro took over, many Batista supporters ran to US where they were armed and sent back to Cuba to fight Castro. Guess what? All of them died. US then began to plan a full scale invasion. Castro was exactly the same type of power hungry dictator as Batista and he needed monetary and military support. He didn't care where he will get it and he probably heard of communism couple of times. So when Soviets offered him support in exchange of joining "socialist camp" Castro gladly accepted. Soviets moved their brand new missiles on the Island of "Freedom", which scared US to death. US and Soviets negotiated and came to terms that US will not go through with its invasion, and Soviets will withdraw their missiles from the island.

So the question is who's the bad guy here? Answer both are pretty bad. So don't tell me that US is peace loving care giving nation. And Russians are stupid greedy vodka drinkers.


http://www.uploadit.org/files/131003-361067-med.jpg


"One day there is certain to be another order of the Soviet Union. It will be the Order of Zhukov, and that order will be prized by every man who admires courage, vision, fortitude, and determination in a soldier". -Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1945

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 07:19 PM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- kinda off topic but does anyone in the world notice
- all the conflicts the us is involved against they
- use russian weapons. And all russias conflicts their
- enemy uses US weapons.
-
- <center>http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/LS1.txt
- Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't.
- (c) Leadspitter</center>

OVER A CENTURY OF U.S. MILITARY INTERVENTIONS
Compiled by Zoltan Grossman
(revised 1/1/95)
The following is a partial list of U.S. military interventions from 1890 to 1994. This guide does not include demonstration duty by military police, mobilizations of the National Guard, offshore shows of naval strength, reinforcements of embassy personnel, the use of non-Defense Department personnel (such as the Drug Enforcement Agency), military exercises, non-combat mobilizations (such as replacing postal strikers), the permanent stationing of armed forces, covert actions where the U.S. did not play a command and control role, the use of small hostage rescue units, most uses of proxy troops, U.S. piloting of foreign warplanes, foreign disaster assistance, military training and advisory programs not involving direct combat, civic action programs, and many other military activities. Among sources used, besides news reports, are the Congressional Record (23 June 1969), 180 Landings by the U.S. Marine Corps History Division, Ege & Makhijani in Counterspy (July-Aug. 1982), and Ellsberg in Protest & Survive.
LOCATION/Period/Type of Force/Comments on U.S. role
SOUTH DAKOTA/1890 (-?)/Troops/300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee.
ARGENTINA/1890/Troops/Buenos Aires interests protected.
CHILE/l891/Troops/Marines clash with nationalist rebels.
HAITI/1891/Troops/Black workers revolt on U.S.-claimed Navassa Island defeated.
IDAHO/1892/Troops/Army suppresses silverminers' strike.
HAWAII/l893 (-?)/Naval, troops/Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.
CHICAGO/1894/Troops/Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed.
NICARAGUA/l894/Troops/Month-long occupation of Bluefields.
CHINA/l894-95/Naval, troops/Marines land in Sino-Japanese War.
KOREA/l894-96/Troops/Marines kept in Seoul during war.
PANAMA/1895/Troops, naval/Marines land in Colombian province.
NICARAGUA/l896/Troops/Marines land in port of Corinto.
CHINA/l898-1900/Troops/Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies.
PHILIPPINES/l898-1910(-?)/Naval, troops/Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos.
CUBA/l898-1902(-?)/Naval, troops/Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base.
PUERTO RICO/1898(-?)/Naval, troops/Seized from Spain, occupation continues.
GUAM/l898(-?)/Naval, troops/Seized from Spain, still use as base.
MINNESOTA/l898(-?)/Troops/Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake.
NICARAGUA/l898/Troops/Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.
SAMOA/1899(-?)/Troops/Battle over succession to throne.
NICARAGUA/l899/Troops/Marines land at port of Bluefields.
IDAHO/1899-1901/Troops/Army occupies Coeur d'Alene mining region.
OKLAHOMA/1901/Troops/Army battles Creek Indian revolt.
PANAMA/1901-03(-?)/Naval, troops/Broke off from Colombia, annexed Canal Zone.
HONDURAS/l903/Troops/Marines intervene in revolution.
DOMINICAN REP./1903-04/Troops/U.S. interests protected in Revolution.
KOREA/1904-05/Troops/Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.
CUBA/1906-09/Troops/Marines land in democratic election.
NICARAGUA/1907/Troops/"Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up.
HONDURAS/l907/Troops/Marines land during war with Nicaragua.
PANAMA/l908/Troops/Marines intervene in election contest.
NICARAGUA/l9l0/Troops/Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.
HONDURAS/1911/Troops/U.S. interests protected in civil war.
CHINA/1911-41/Naval, troops/Continuous occupation with flare-ups.
CUBA/1912/Troops/U.S. interests protected in Havana.
PANAMA/l9l2/Troops/Marines land during heated election.
HONDURAS/l9l2/Troops/Marines protect U.S. economic interests.
NICARAGUA/1912-33/Troops, bombing/20-year occupation, fought guerrillas.
MEXICO/l9l3/Naval/Americans evacuated during revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC/1914/Naval/Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.
COLORADO/1914/Troops/Breaking of miners' strike by Army.
MEXICO/1914-18/Naval, troops/Series of interventions against nationalists.
HAITI/1914-34/Troops, bombing/19-year occupation after revolts.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC/1916-24/Troops/8-year Marine occupation.
CUBA/1917-33/Troops/Military occupation, economic protectorate.
WORLD WAR I/19l7-18/Naval, troops/Ships sunk, fought Germany for 1 l/2 years.
RUSSIA/1918-22/Naval, troops/Five landings to fight Bolsheviks.
PANAMA/1918-20/Troops/"Police duty" during unrest after elections.
HONDURAS/l9l9/Troops/Marines land during election campaign.
GUATEMALA/1920/Troops/2-week intervention against unionists.
WEST VIRGINIA/1920-21/Troops, bombing/Army intervenes against mineworkers.
TURKEY/1922/Troops/Fought nationalists in Smyrna (Izmir).
CHINA/1922-27/Naval, troops/Deployment during nationalist revolt.
HONDURAS/1924-25/Troops/Landed twice during election strife.
PANAMA/1925/Troops/Marines suppress general strike.
CHINA/l928-34/Troops/Marines stationed throughout the country.
EL SALVADOR/l932/Naval/Warships sent during Faribundo Marti revolt.
WASHINGTON DC/1932/Troops/Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.
WORLD WAR II/1941-45/Naval,troops, bombing, nuclear/Hawaii bombed, fought Japan, Italy and Germany for 3 years; 1st nuclear war.
DETROIT/l943/Troops/Army puts down Black rebellion.
IRAN/l946/Nuclear threat/Soviet troops told to leave north (Iranian Azerbaijan).
YUGOSLAVIA/l946/Nuclear threat/Response to shooting-down of U.S. plane.
URUGUAY/l947/Nuclear threat/Bombers deployed as show of strength.
GREECE/l947-49/Command operation/U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.
GERMANY/l948/Nuclear threat/Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift.
PHILIPPINES/l948-54/Command operation/CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.
PUERTO RICO/1950/Command operation/Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.
KOREA/l951-53(-?)/Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats/U.S.& South Korea fight China & North Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in l950, and against China in l953. Still have bases.
IRAN/l953/Command operation/CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.
VIETNAM/l954/Nuclear threat/Bombs offered to French to use against siege.
GUATEMALA/l954/Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat/CIA directs exile invasion after new gov't nationalizes U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.
EGYPT/l956/Nuclear threat/Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis.
LEBANON/l958/Troops, naval/Marine occupation against rebels.
IRAQ/1958/Nuclear threat/Iraq warned against invading Kuwait.
CHINA/l958/Nuclear threat/China told not to move on Taiwan isles.
PANAMA/1958/Troops/Flag protests erupt into confrontation.
VIETNAM/l960-75/Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats/Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; one million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969.
LAOS/1961/Command operation/Military buildup during guerrilla war.
CUBA/l961/Command operation/CIA-directed exile invasion fails.
GERMANY/l961/Nuclear threat/Alert during Berlin Wall crisis.
CUBA/l962/Nuclear threat, naval/Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union.
PANAMA/l964/Troops/Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.
INDONESIA/l965/Command operation/Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC/1965-66/Troops, bombing/Marines land during election campaign.
GUATEMALA/l966-67/Command operation/Green Berets intervene against rebels.
DETROIT/l967/Troops/Army battles Blacks, 43 killed.
UNITED STATES/l968/Troops/After King is shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities.
CAMBODIA/l969-75/Bombing, troops, naval/Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
OMAN/l970/Command operation/U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
LAOS/l971-73/Command operation, bombing/U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.
SOUTH DAKOTA/l973/Command operation/Army directs Wounded Knee siege of Lakotas.
MIDEAST/1973/Nuclear threat/World-wide alert during Mideast War.
CHILE/1973/Command operation/CIA-backed coup ousts elected marxist president.
CAMBODIA/l975/Troops, bombing/Gas captured ship, 28 die in copter crash.
ANGOLA/l976-92/Command operation/CIA assists South African-backed rebels.
IRAN/l980/Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing/Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution.
LIBYA/l981/Naval jets/Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.
EL SALVADOR/l981-92/Command operation, troops/Advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash.
NICARAGUA/l981-90/Command operation, naval/CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.
HONDURAS/l982-90/Troops/Maneuvers help build bases near borders.
LEBANON/l982-84/Naval, bombing, troops/Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions.
GRENADA/l983-84/Troops, bombing/Invasion four years after revolution.
LIBYA/l986/Bombing, naval/Air strikes to topple nationalist gov't.
BOLIVIA/1987/Troops/Army assists raids on cocaine region.
IRAN/l987-88/Naval, bombing/US intervenes on side of Iraq in war.
LIBYA/1989/Naval jets/Two Libyan jets shot down.
VIRGIN ISLANDS/1989/Troops/St. Croix Black unrest after storm.
PHILIPPINES/1989/Jets/Air cover provided for government against coup.
PANAMA/1989-?/Troops, bombing/Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed.
LIBERIA/1990/Troops/Foreigners evacuated during civil war.
SAUDI ARABIA/1990-91/Troops, jets/Iraq countered after invading Kuwait. 540,000 troops also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.
KUWAIT/1991/Naval, bombing, troops/Kuwait royal family returned to throne.
IRAQ/1990-?/Bombing, troops, naval/Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes; 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; no-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south, large- scale destruction of Iraqi military.
LOS ANGELES/1992/Troops/Army, Marines deployed against anti- police uprising.
SOMALIA/1992-94/Troops, naval, bombing/U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu faction.
JUGOSLAVIA/1992-94/Naval/Nato blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.
BOSNIA/1993-?/Jets, bombing/No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs.
HAITI/1994-?/Troops, naval/Blockcade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
For more information or with comments and additions please contact: Zoltan Grossman, 1705 Rutledge, Madison, WI 53704 Phone/Fax (608)246-2256.
Permission to reproduce this list in its entirety is granted by the author, please send any published copy to the above address.

Not all the conflicts! AND this is another stupid off topic flame thread!
Master

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 08:48 PM
Whoa whoa whoa stg77, manufacturer of the most sophisticatd weapons in the world? AK-47s? Gas weapons? These are the most sophisticated weapons in the world? How about the E-bomb we have? How about the JSF-35 fighter. They are fielding fifty year old equipment. All their weapons came from hate and hopes of world conquest. I havn't heard too often about us using THEIR weapons, not to the degree you talk of. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

The Young Lions in the Forest suffer and lack, But thoser who know the Lord Shall not want of any good thing. Keep your tongue from Evil and your lips from speaking deciet. Depart from evil, do good and pursue it!

>Psalms

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 08:55 PM
So soapy, where do I lie? This post wasn't designed to ignite flames, just to see what we all thought about that. Perhaps you think I meant the RUSSIANS bombed us. Now THAT would be deciet.

The Young Lions in the Forest suffer and lack, But thoser who know the Lord Shall not want of any good thing. Keep your tongue from Evil and your lips from speaking deciet. Depart from evil, do good and pursue it!

>Psalms

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 08:58 PM
I gather you don't live in Iraq, Thera.

The Young Lions in the Forest suffer and lack, But thoser who know the Lord Shall not want of any good thing. Keep your tongue from Evil and your lips from speaking deciet. Depart from evil, do good and pursue it!

>Psalms

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 09:06 PM
Search: Anotoliy Golitsyn--KGB defector--1961. Or Jan Senja--Czech intelligence--1968 or 69----- or the GRU guy Lunev 1992. Alexandr Nemets ,J.R. Nyquist.
For some interesting out of the ordinary insights.

ZG77_Nagual
10-21-2003, 09:08 PM
This below is very true. Never truer than now when, and this is just one example - Zero of the reasons we went to war in Iraq have proven to be true. Of the things that go on domestically while most of our attention is directed at the wars - well: You'd have to want to know.

Several months before the war started a Russian general said - and I paraphrase "the americans have allready decided to attack - the war is about oil and money"

Just look at the companies rebuilding Iraq - Bechtel, Halliburton - this is why our leadership doesn't want the UN involved - they want to maintain exclusive contracts for these companies and control over oil.

Democratic reform in Iran was set back decades by numb, numbs 'Axis of Evil' - united against a common enemy makes for good groupthink.

So, what fashions do you think britney's into this week?



Thera wrote:
- Brian Eno wrote a nice little piece about the
- differences between Russian and US propaganda.
- Here's the exerpt.
-
- "When I first visited Russia, in 1986, I made
- friends with a musician whose father had been
- Brezhnev's personal doctor. One day we were talking
- about life during 'the period of stagnation' - the
- Brezhnev era. 'It must have been strange being so
- completely immersed in propaganda,' I said.
-
- 'Ah, but there is the difference. We knew it was
- propaganda,' replied Sacha.
-
- That is the difference. Russian propaganda was so
- obvious that most Russians were able to ignore it.
- They took it for granted that the government
- operated in its own interests and any message coming
- from it was probably slanted - and they discounted
- it.
-
- In the West the calculated manipulation of public
- opinion to serve political and ideological interests
- is much more covert and therefore much more
- effective. Its greatest triumph is that we generally
- don't notice it - or laugh at the notion it even
- exists. We watch the democratic process taking place
- - heated debates in which we feel we could have a
- voice - and think that, because we have 'free'
- media, it would be hard for the Government to get
- away with anything very devious without someone
- calling them on it.
-
- It takes something as dramatic as the invasion of
- Iraq to make us look a bit more closely and ask:
- 'How did we get here?' How exactly did it come about
- that, in a world of Aids, global warming, 30-plus
- active wars, several famines, cloning, genetic
- engineering, and two billion people in poverty,
- practically the only thing we all talked about for a
- year was Iraq and Saddam Hussein? Was it really that
- big a problem? Or were we somehow manipulated into
- believing the Iraq issue was important and had to be
- fixed right now - even though a few months before
- few had mentioned it, and nothing had changed in the
- interim."...
-
------------------------------------------
-
-
- Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.



http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/whiner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 09:14 PM
Yeah, Iraq and Osama are a distraction alright.Almost a conveniant distraction.
-----------------------------------------------------------

By Bill Gertz
April 1st, 1997
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Russia is continuing a Cold War-era program to build deep underground bunkers, subways and command posts to help Moscow's leaders flee the capital and survive a nuclear attack, The Washington Times has learned.
Among the ambitious projects: a secret subway being built directly to the residence of Russian President Boris Yeltsin outside Moscow.

"The underground construction appears larger than previously assessed," a CIA report labeled "top secret" reported two weeks ago.
"Three decrees last year on an emergency planning authority under Yeltsin with oversight of underground facility construction suggest that the purpose of the Moscow-area projects is to maintain continuity of leadership during nuclear war."

A copy of the report was obtained by The Washington Times from defense sources. A CIA spokesman declined to comment.
Disclosure of the secret multibillion-dollar construction program comes less than two weeks after President Clinton and Mr. Yeltsin agreed in Helsinki to extend the deadline for nuclear arms cuts under the START II treaty because of Russian concerns over "dismantlement costs."
U.S. officials said the Russian spending on strategic defenses, coupled with ongoing procurement of new strategic missiles and submarines, raises questions about Moscow's claims not to have funds needed to carry out START II reductions.

The outlays also raise new worries among some U.S. officials about whether U.S. aid to Russia is allowing Moscow to spend its money on building new strategic forces and facilities.
"How can the United States be so gullible to accept Russian claims that it doesn't have the money to comply with START II when it's made the decision to modernize its forces and build these underground facilities?" asked one U.S. government defense official.
According to the CIA report, construction work is continuing on a "nuclear-survivable, strategic command post at Kosvinsky Mountain," located deep in the Ural Mountains about 850 miles west of Moscow. Satellite photographs of Yamantau Mountain, also located about 850 miles west of Moscow in the Urals near the town of Beloretsk, show continued digging at the "deep underground complex" and new construction at each of the site's above-ground support areas, the CIA stated. Yamantau Mountain means "Evil Mountain" in the local Bashkir langauge.

"The command post at Kosvinsky appears to provide the Russians with the means to retaliate against a nuclear attack," the CIA report said. "The rationale for the Yamantau complex is unclear."
According to the CIA report, the Russians are building or renovating four complexes within Moscow that would be used to house senior Russian government leaders during a nuclear strike.
A map published in the report showed new subway construction under way from Victory Park Station in Moscow to Mr. Yeltsin's dacha, some 13 miles west of the Kremlin and about four miles from the Moscow Ring Road.

Additionally, the CIA report stated that a bunker for Russian leaders at Voronovo, about 46 miles south of Moscow, is nearly complete. A second bunker located at Sharapovo, some 34 miles from Moscow, has a special underground subway running directly to it.
The subway system for Russian leaders allows for "rapid evacuation of leaders during wartime from Moscow," the CIA said. Presumably, the leadership would then be flown to the Yamantau or Kosvinsky complexes. According to the report, Mr. Yeltsin and Prime Minister Viktor Chernomyrdin endorsed the construction of the bunkers, subways and command posts, and funding for the Yamantau facility was listed for the first time this year in the Russian federal budget.

Peter Pry, a former CIA analyst and author of a new book on Russian nuclear operations, said the continued construction of the Russian strategic defense sites is ominous and cannot be dismissed by U.S. officials as "inertia" from Cold War-era strategic policies.
"It shows they take the threat of nuclear war so seriously that they're willing to spend scarce resources on it," Mr. Pry said, adding that he was not familiar with the CIA report. "These things are tying down billions of dollars in rubles that could go into other enterprises the Russians need -- for example, providing housing for Russian military officers."

Mr. Pry said Russian press reports say the underground facility at Yamantau Mountain covers an area as large as the Capital Beltway. The Clinton administration has been providing hundreds of millions of dollars in U.S. aid to Russia to help Moscow dismantle its nuclear arsenal.
Despite the aid, the CIA report shows that the Russians are building both defensive and offensive strategic facilities and weapons, including a new type of long-range strategic missile and a new strategic missile submarine.
Russian Defense Minister Igor Rodionov said in February that both the reliability and control of Russian nuclear weapons were in question because of the deterioration of the armed forces, but Pentagon officials have dismissed the statements as posturing by Mr. Rodionov in a bid to boost his budget.

Mr. Pry said the Russian construction program also shows that Russian leaders do not see a diminished threat of nuclear conflict. "This is a manifestation of the Russians' continued war-fighting attitudes," Mr. Pry said. "They believe in the idea that you can survive and prevail in a nuclear conflict. These kinds of facilities are designed to survive for weeks and months."
By contrast, U.S. nuclear protective facilities have been largely shut down. The complex underneath the Greenbriar resort in Virginia was abandoned, along with another facility in Virginia known as Mount Weather, U.S. officials have said.

The main nuclear command facility now in existence is located inside Cheyenne Mountain, Colo., but it was only designed to withstand small nuclear blasts and would easily be knocked out in a large Russian missile attack.
By contrast, there are no nuclear weapons currently in the U.S. arsenal capable of damaging the new Russian strategic defense facilities.

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 09:14 PM
ZG77_Nagual wrote:
- Several months before the war started a Russian
- general said - and I paraphrase "the americans have
- allready decided to attack - the war is about oil
- and money"
-

Hey, do you happen to remember the exact dollar figure that Iraq owed Russia? I forget.

Thanks!

<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 09:23 PM
desant CCCP

Where did the Russians get the design for the Fulcrum?

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 09:38 PM
What do you mean where did they get the design?

Mikoyan's design agency created it.

http://www.uploadit.org/files/131003-361067-med.jpg


"One day there is certain to be another order of the Soviet Union. It will be the Order of Zhukov, and that order will be prized by every man who admires courage, vision, fortitude, and determination in a soldier". -Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1945

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 09:39 PM
CrazyBell wrote:
- So soapy, where do I lie? This post wasn't designed
- to ignite flames, just to see what we all thought
- about that. Perhaps you think I meant the RUSSIANS
- bombed us. Now THAT would be deciet.
-
- The Young Lions in the Forest suffer and lack, But
- thoser who know the Lord Shall not want of any good
- thing. Keep your tongue from Evil and your lips from
- speaking deciet. Depart from evil, do good and
- pursue it!
-
- >Psalms
-

No, I read your post and understood what you were saying.

Others have added more factual information to possibly explain the rationale behind the Russion CO's actions.

What I don't get is why you posted about the incident in the first place.

I won't look up US friendly fire incidents of that era and post them. Neither will I enter into debate with people here about Iraq, Chechnya or any other conflict.

On first, and second and third read, your post seems to be accusing the Russions of negligence and denying the USAAF guys a "victory". I can only assume you have just found a history book somewhere and want to make a point about the Russians being "Bad" (tm) and the US being "Good"(tm).







<center>
http://blankgiro.freewebspace.com/IL2/soapy112th.jpg
</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 10:29 PM
Of course Lenins "New Economic Policy" or NEP that was in place from 1921-29 was an earlier example of "perestroika",and a con job on the West to make them believe the Soviet system had evolved into a benevolent system,and secure money for its survival.
-----------------------------------------------------------

From the backcover: "Anatoliy Golitsyn's first book, 'New Lies for Old', caused a long running sensation when it was discovered that, unlike most Western analysts, the Author had accurately predicted, some years ahead of the events, the 'Break with the Past' which took place in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union in 1989-91. In his book 'Wedge: The Secret War between the FBI and CIA' [Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1994],

Mark Riebling, who carried out a methodical analysis of Golitsyn's predictions in 'New Lies for Old', credited the Author with 'an accuracy record of nearly 94%'. This singular achievement puts all other analysts, including some official services, to shame; and it is precisely because of his record of pin-point accuracy that Western Governments, policymakers and even some intelligence services, whose record bears little comparison with Golitysn's, have competed with one another over the years to find reasons why Golitsyn's perceptive explanations of Soviet strategy should be ignored.

But events as they unfold are relentlessly proving this remarkable analyst of Soviet strategy to be right. 'The Perestroika Deception' explains the devious secret intent behind the Leninist strategy which the 'former' Communists are pursuing under cover of fake 'reform' and 'progress towards democracy'. The immediate strategic objective is 'convergence' with the West -- on their terms, not ours. The ultimate objective is Lenin's: replacement of nations states with collective regional governments as building blocks of the 'New World Social Order' -- World [Communist] Government."

About the Author: Anatoliy Golitsyn was born in the Ukraine in 1926, served as a member of the KGB in various intelligence, counterintelligence, and counterespionage roles, until he defected to the United States in 1961 of which he is now a citizen. Since that time he has diligently studied Communist and international affairs, reading both the Western and Communist press which has lead him to submit Memoranda to the CIA outlining his analysis of Communist affairs.

Introduction: The book includes a series of memoranda that the author sent to the CIA in recent years. Golitsyn felt that since his "warnings" have basically gone unheeded by the government that he would publish them in a book. He asked the CIA to declassify them, and they agreed. The author cites several reasons for this consideration of presenting his memoranda to the public. I'll quote just two:
(1) "...The democracies of the United States and Western Europe are facing a dangerous situation and are vulnerable because their governments, the Vatican, the elite, the media, the industrialists, the financiers, the trade unions and, most important, the general public are blind to the dangers of the strategy of 'perestroika' ... The democracies could perish unless they are informed about the aggressive design of 'perestroika' against them." (pg. XIX)
(2) "...I could not imagine that American policymakers, and particularly the conservatives in both the Republican and Democratic parties, despite their long experience with Communist treachery, would not be able to grasp the new manoeuvres of the Communist strategists and would rush to commit the West to helping 'perestroika' which is so contrary to their interests.

"It has been sad to observe the jubilation of American and West European conservatives who have been cheering 'perestroika' without realising that it is intended to bring about their own political and physical demise. Liberal support for 'perestroika' is understandable, but conservative support came as a surprise to me." (pg. XIX)
In trying to understand the reason that Golitsyn's warnings have been overlooked by Western leaders, the editor writes:

"The first main reason for the general (but not in fact complete) rejection of the Author's analysis is that, as the case of Aldrich Hazen Ames has shown, the Russians won the intelligence war through their penetration of Western intelligence services--a message which, naturally, these services do not wish to hear... In the course of his work with the American, British and French services, the Author found that penetration had destroyed their ability to interpret events in the Communist world correctly." (pg. XXV)

The following items are just a sampling of what is covered in this 247 page book:
- Perestroika is the result of 30 years of preparation and strategy in the "restructuring of the whole world." (pg. 45)
- The actions of Russia in securing victories by the Leftist parties in the recent elections of the U.S., West Germany, France and Britain. The Russians feel that Conservatives might "recover" from the idea of perestroika so it would be best to have Liberals in office.
- In 1989, Golitsyn suggested to the CIA that Gorbachev could possibly be replaced by either a conservative of Ligachev's type or by a liberal of Yeltsin's type. The author further speculated that Gorbachev's replacement would be a calculated move and, depending on circumstances, may even be brought back into power at a later date.

- The Chinese-Russian relation and the West's failure to understand this relationship. In 1989, the author wrote to the CIA: "...China is destined to become a Soviet partner in the future World Government towards which Moscow and Peking are jointly preceding." (pg. 36) In another memorandum to the CIA in February 1993, Golitsyn wrote in reference to a "mask of diplomatic and political cooperation" by Russia: "When the right moment comes the mask will be dropped and the Russians with Chinese help will seek to impose their system on the West on their own terms as the culmination of a 'Second October Socialist Revolution.' (p. 158).

- The three centers of nuclear military power that Russia and China must deal with: the United States, Western Europe and Israel. The Russians calculate that the U.S. and Western Europe neutralization will be handled diplomatically via arms agreements and such. The issue of Israel is another matter, which the author suggests that neutralization might occur via sabotage of nuclear facilities.

- The author discusses the possible 'perestroika' event in China at Tienanmen Square that was later changed at the last minute, reminding us that this Chinese crackdown occurred on the "eve of the changes in Eastern Europe" and immediately after a visit by Gorbachev suggesting that this event was far from coincidental. He questions the "massacre" at Tienanmem surmising that reporters only heard gunfire and tanks from their hotel rooms but were not true eyewitnesses to the events inside the square. He cites conflicting news reports on the matter. He also suggests that any deaths may have been "selective killing of the unorganized elements" involved in Tienanmen Square.

This is in line with his belief that the demonstration started out as a Party-organized event that later turned into genuine spontaneous involvement by many "unorganized elements" which would of course threaten Chinese control of the demonstration. (pg. 108)

- Golitsyn discusses the Western press and their inability to accurately report events in Russia and other Communist countries due to their ignorance, in part, of what perestroika actually is. Their version of perestroika is so in tune with what the Communists would have them believe, that now Russia allows its public to listen to such radio programs as "The Voice of America" and the BBC.
- On the topic of religion, Golitsyn wrote to the CIA in 1990: "...greater apparent official tolerance of religion in the Soviet Union is accompanied by a secret drive to increase Party and KGB penetration of the Catholic and other churches and to use agents therein for political and strategic purposes inside and outside the Soviet Union.

As part of the programme to destroy religion from within, the KGB, in the late 1950s, started sending dedicated young Communists to ecclesiastical academies and seminaries to train them as future church leaders. These young Communists joined the Church, not at the call of their consciences to serve God, but at the call of the Communist Party in order to serve that Party and to implement its general line in the struggle against religion." The author continues in saying that when these new "church leaders" have achieved their goals, that a mass withdrawal of these agents will occur to disrupt and destroy the churches. Golitsyn warns that "never in its history since Nero has Christianity faced such a threat of possible destruction." (pp. 116-117)

- In a memorandum dated April 1995 the heading reads: "An Assessment of the Invitation to Billy Graham to Preach in Soviet Churches During His Second Visit to the USSR." Golitsyn writes: "This was an extraordinary, moving and impressive event with serious political and strategic implications." (p. 186)
- The "contrived and military bungling" of events in Chechnya in 1994 to give the false impression of the ineptness of the Russian military.

Conclusion: "The Perestroika Deception" is packed full of information. And remember, this information was first given to, and generally ignored by, the CIA as an expert analysis. The author does not mix words. He tells it as he sees it. Definitely not a book you would want to curl up with at night, but perhaps a book to consider reading in helping to balance out the mis- and disinformation that is fed to us now
-----------------------------------------------------------
Oh, and as if the Chinese and Soviets couldnt have staged the so-called border disputes in the late 60's.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 01:14 AM
What the hell are you all talking about? I feel like I'm looking at a freakshow. None of you "experts" seem to actually know very much about Russia or Russian people.

Mods I suggest you kill this one asap. If there was ever an OT thread, this is it.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 01:40 AM
Author: maxim26 Rank: Over 50 postings

-- You will not find crap (MS 3FSC) like this (MS SC3F) produced in Russia,
-- but you buy game software as--IL2 and LockOn, produced in Russia-creative products.

Actually, IL2/FB and Flanker. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif The *only* two games that ever installed properly on my computers and worked with first click. Now there is Quality manufacture.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 02:34 AM
Boy, does this thread suck.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/jug_sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 03:13 AM
Please lock this thread.Please...

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 03:45 AM
I'm sure we all knew this was going to happen/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif This thread should be locked before it gets any worse, although I don't know how it could possibly get any worse than it already is. Why don't we all just go back to happily killing each other on the virtual battlefield/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Man will never truly be free until the last politician has been strangled with the entrails of the last priest. "Voltaire"

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 03:59 AM
What a shame, some people in here are arguing over who`s country makes the most destructive weapons. And they sound proud of that fact.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 04:17 AM
Another vote for the please lock choice.

These threads make me sad.

----------------------------------
=38=Backfire
Starshii Leytenant - 38. OIAE

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 04:57 AM
This is rediculous, CrazyBell, you are the kind of person that makes us look bad! Im sure every country on the planet has some skeletons hidden in the closet.....whats the purpose of posting this trash.

IBTL!

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 05:04 AM
I wonder how much a bodyguard costs? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

The Young Lions in the Forest suffer and lack, But thoser who know the Lord Shall not want of any good thing. Keep your tongue from Evil and your lips from speaking deciet. Depart from evil, do good and pursue it!

>Psalms