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VF-10_Snacky
08-11-2004, 04:18 AM
I'm a P38 fan and without trying to sound as though I am whining I wanted to post some info I found on the P38J.

"The P-38J-25-LO production block also introduced power-boosted ailerons. These consisted of ailerons that were operated by a hydraulically-actuated bell-crank and push-pull rod, making it easier for the pilot to maneuver the airplane at high airspeeds. This boosting system was one of the first applications of powered controls to any fighter, and required only 17 percent of the previous stick forces. The hydraulic aileron booster system vastly improved the roll rate and thereby increased the effectiveness of the P-38 in combat. P-38Js with power-boosted ailerons proved to have the highest roll-rates of any fighter."

The P38 was a feared fighter in WWII, but quite frankly it is known as an "easy kill" in AEP.
Without having the standard "Learn your plane" response can we look at maybe improving the P38 before support runs out. It was such a great plane and to see it undermodelled in AEP really kills me.



Source for the above quote. http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_13.html

http://www.x-plane.org/users/531seawolf/f4ucorsr.jpg

[This message was edited by -Seawolf- on Wed August 11 2004 at 03:39 AM.]

[This message was edited by -Seawolf- on Wed August 11 2004 at 03:40 AM.]

VF-10_Snacky
08-11-2004, 04:18 AM
I'm a P38 fan and without trying to sound as though I am whining I wanted to post some info I found on the P38J.

"The P-38J-25-LO production block also introduced power-boosted ailerons. These consisted of ailerons that were operated by a hydraulically-actuated bell-crank and push-pull rod, making it easier for the pilot to maneuver the airplane at high airspeeds. This boosting system was one of the first applications of powered controls to any fighter, and required only 17 percent of the previous stick forces. The hydraulic aileron booster system vastly improved the roll rate and thereby increased the effectiveness of the P-38 in combat. P-38Js with power-boosted ailerons proved to have the highest roll-rates of any fighter."

The P38 was a feared fighter in WWII, but quite frankly it is known as an "easy kill" in AEP.
Without having the standard "Learn your plane" response can we look at maybe improving the P38 before support runs out. It was such a great plane and to see it undermodelled in AEP really kills me.



Source for the above quote. http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_13.html

http://www.x-plane.org/users/531seawolf/f4ucorsr.jpg

[This message was edited by -Seawolf- on Wed August 11 2004 at 03:39 AM.]

[This message was edited by -Seawolf- on Wed August 11 2004 at 03:40 AM.]

Hristo_
08-11-2004, 04:20 AM
Learn your plane :-P

Cippacometa
08-11-2004, 04:36 AM
P-38s are easy kills in FB if they're flyed in dogfight style.
In RL, P-38 were effective since they were used in team combat and maximizing its high speed characteristics, concentrated fire, long range and twin-engine safety.
It is not that P-38 is undermodelled in FB; it's just that it could be effective only in true cooperative missions where it is not engaged in dogfights and where it can quicly fire on an opponent with its concentrated MGs, then zoom up, followed by the other P.38s. Quite a "team-BnZ" aircraft.

VF-10_Snacky
08-11-2004, 04:41 AM
"It was a marveleous aircraft! It was the best aircraft I flew in the war by far. I never flew the P-51, its been one of my life regrets, but I flew just about everything else there was. I liked the P-38s rate of climb, its speed, the way it handled, and its firepower directly out the nose. The P-38 would turn with almost anything, in fact it would out turn the P-47, out climb it, and out maneuver it. The P-38 was one of the great aircraft of WWII."...Charles MacDonald, P-38 Ace

http://www.x-plane.org/users/531seawolf/f4ucorsr.jpg

Hristo_
08-11-2004, 05:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by (SEAWOLF):
"It was a marveleous aircraft! It was the best aircraft I flew in the war by far. I never flew the P-51, its been one of my life regrets, but I flew just about everything else there was. I liked the P-38s rate of climb, its speed, the way it handled, and its firepower directly out the nose. The P-38 would turn with almost anything, in fact it would out turn the P-47, out climb it, and out maneuver it. The P-38 was one of the great aircraft of WWII."...Charles MacDonald, P-38 Ace

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It could in fact outturn a P-47 ?! Wow ! Since when outturning a P-47 is a sign of great turner anyway ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I don't play as much as I would like for sure, but I haven't seen a single P-38 flying conservative BnZ ever in this sim. They all pretend to be whirling dervishes, turning at treetop level after they've dumped their Jabo load. Definitely not healthy with enemy planes above. McGuire tried the same thing 60 years ago. His P-38 was undermodeled as well, it seems.

lbhskier37
08-11-2004, 05:59 AM
Next time CrazyIvan has a server up you need to go in and watch Korolov fly the P38, in fact take up some "overmodeled" plane against him in a P38 and then come and tell us how much it sucks.

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/2005VRSCSE.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&whereauthorid=lbhkilla&comefrom=display&ts=1049772896)
Official "uber190n00b"

"Big cannons are only for skilless pilots who can't shoot shraight enough to hit a target with a smaller caliber round."-310thcopperhead

RocketDog
08-11-2004, 06:37 AM
The P-38 seems quite accurately modelled in FB, except for the single engine performance - but that's a problem across the board.

The key thing to appreciate is that flying on DF servers bears almost no relation to anything that actually happened in WWII. To see the P-38 in its real element you have to play some near-full-real co-ops.

Regards,

RocketDog.

VMF513_Sandman
08-11-2004, 10:40 AM
it appears...and i might be wrong...that when the engines go into over-rev(above 3k rpm), lowering the manifold pressure will actually grab a hell of alot of speed. for higher alts, say above 5k meters, backin down the manifold with rpms at 3k gets speed. 1 thing i dont like about the J is its lack of dive brakes. i thought that since the H model, all 38's had the brake to get it out of tail compression.
havent been able to test it since this new patch, but the J seemed 2x's more stable low-n-slow than the L ever did. did nice stall turns and siccors in 1, but that was back in the day of 2.0/2.01.

in either of the 38's tho, i do have 1 big beef...the phosphorus of the 20mm round. the hurricane leaves bright streaks, but the 38 seems to wink out after firing then u see the shell as a bright dot. not the easiest way to be able to judge ur deflection shots. they do hit hard tho..just 1 needed to snap a spitfire's wing off or shred a spitty's cables from 800 meters.

fordfan25
08-11-2004, 11:22 AM
the only thing i cant stand about the p38 in the game is how bad it shakes when you fire the 20mm.it seems to jump around more than the m262.i find it very hard to aim with all the up and down bounceing after the first 20mm round goes off http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

El Turo
08-11-2004, 11:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>just 1 needed to snap a spitfire's wing off or shred a spitty's cables from 800 meters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/354.gif

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
This place
was once
a place
of worship
I thought,
reloading my rifle.

~V.

Da_Godfatha
08-11-2004, 11:34 AM
Try using the Boom-Stick the P-39/P-63 series have. Now THAT is shakin man !!!

DaGodfatha http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

VMF513_Sandman
08-11-2004, 01:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fordfan25:
the only thing i cant stand about the p38 in the game is how bad it shakes when you fire the 20mm.it seems to jump around more than the m262.i find it very hard to aim with all the up and down bounceing after the first 20mm round goes off http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

it isnt the gun brah. i've hit from .5 out rather easy dead 6, and from as far as .8 out on deflections. 1st thing u need to do is eliminate the nose bounce cause of a sloppy joystick. if u have any play in the stick..moving just with fingertips, u need to turn the 1st sensitivity slider down till that doesnt transmit to the 'pilot'. same for roll. u have almost no recoil with that 20mm. 30mm from the 109's and p-39/63....diff story.

The190Flyer
08-11-2004, 01:20 PM
I think that the P-38 is GREAT! They were one of the most manuverable aircraft of the war.
I have a little issue in AEP. I think that the P-38 doesnt turn very well IMO. Although it could just be me.

Snow_Wolf_
08-11-2004, 02:35 PM
compare to the P-38F in CFS2 this P-38J and L we have is great but i still like the F since it feels like a 18 wheeler at high speed not wanting to turn and all. Personally the P-38 we have right no good if u know what your doing, for once at high speed i was turning with a Ki-84 either i got lucky or he was blacking out, But still it great plane at .090m i set his fuel tanks on fire, kill his pilot and snap his wing off. But if you going fly this bird i would seriously say find a wingmen.

http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~jtsiekki/mono2.gif
"Master the art of Speed without ever getting a Ticket"

WTE_Galway
08-11-2004, 07:46 PM
sorta proto skunk-works really

the p38 was kinda what the bf110 was meant to be

Bull_dog_
08-11-2004, 08:24 PM
A number one problem with the p-38 is control effectiveness at high speed and crummy modelling of compressibility.... I see so many games make this mistake...it took special conditions to put a lightning into compressibility and the first requirement was lots of altitude, followed by a dive angel greater than 45 degrees, followed by enough acceleration to go beyond its critical Mach speed which was fairly low.

The lightning got so much publicity because it was the first aircraft to have this happen and because its critical mach speed was a little lower than other aircraft like the Corsair, Jug, Hellcat and Mustang...yes they suffered from compressibility too.

The lightning also suffers from poor turn modelling at high altitude as lift declines significantly over 5000 meters until it won't climb anymore at about 8000 meters without assist from flaps or trim...only high altitude aircraft that won't fly at high altitude...I know, cause I tested it.

The last thing that would make a real plane out of the lightning is to improve its low speed handling and its ability to slow speed climb. It had an extremely low stall speed and should be best in class at high climb angles/slow speed and standing on its prop without stalling. It is good, but there are many aircraft better and there really shouldn't be any other than some of the lightweight Jap planes...no torque and great power to weight ratio.

No the lightning is not the aircraft it really was in AEP...and I didn't even mention dive and zoom climb because all heavy aircraft are hampered and all light aircraft have extra capability due to the way the modelling. After doing much research on compressibility, I have come to the conclusion that aircraft diving at high speed, infinitely gaining speed, to have control surfaces fall off and wings fall off is just not accurate on all aircraft...a few lightly contstructed aircraft like Zekes, Yaks and La's suffered from this but not Fw's, P-47's etc unless they entered compressibility...then they would be shook apart.

I for one would jump on the "lets continue to refine the Lightning FM" bandwagon...it is one of my favorites and it is handicapped mainly due to loss of elevator control and mediocre slow speed handling...it was a B&Z aircraft in real life, but in AEP it is terrible because you lose control so soon. In real life, if the aircraft was not in compressibility at 15-20,000 ft, it wasn't going to go there if the pilot didn't want to...compressibility always started in thin air...drag created by thick air would decelarate the plane...that is a fact. Aircraft had terminal dive velocity that was affected by many variables, but at certain dive angles at certain altitudes planes would stop accelerating and actually decelarate as air thickened and drag was created...not the infinite accelaration of FB/AEP

VF-10_Snacky
08-11-2004, 08:53 PM
I guess I'm a bit fustrated when I try and stick strickly to BnZ tactics and take great steps to stay out of the furball only to have a LA7 zoom climb and catch at high altitudes. The other night I had the P38L maxed out on throttle at 8000m and in level flight a LA7 caught up and overtook me.
Like I said I hate to be one of these whiners and from the responses the majority feels everything is ok so it doesnt really matter anyway.
I had hoped for a little better roll rate at high speeds and better climb ability.
I'm still learning so no need to be hostile.lol

http://www.x-plane.org/users/531seawolf/P38Sig2.jpg

Korolov
08-11-2004, 09:28 PM
I will admit that the P-38 has issues, no doubt that's a fact - but that does not change how you fly it. Fly the plane how IT handles, not how YOU handle.

http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/klv_sigp38shark1a.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
08-11-2004, 10:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by (SEAWOLF):
only to have a LA7 zoom climb and catch at high altitudes. The other night I had the P38L maxed out on throttle at 8000m and in level flight a LA7 caught up and overtook me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that will only happen if you dont manage your speed carefuilly

what was the max speed of the LA-7 again ? . . . 620KmH ? , did the P-38 go faster than that ?

i know at high alt your can wipe away speed very eaisly

ppl also comment on the A4 Fock Wulfe 190 being beaten by Spits in the verticle . . . . . yes its true that the A4 wont keep E as good as the Spit Mk5 , but no Spit Mk5 out climbs any A4

but how many ppl do you see online flying in the correct manner to make this happen ? hardly any

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

tttiger
08-11-2004, 10:48 PM
Any comments about any plane above 7,000 meters are nonsense. The sim just doesn't model high altitude flight at all.

If you want to play at 8,000 meters, fine. But don't whine about how the plane flies.

A P-47 will barely stay in the air at 10,000 meters. That's where it should be at its best.

While I'm ranting http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, all this moaning seems to come from DF pilots.

What makes you think anything in a DF arena is close to real aerial combat?

It's arcade flying. Fast. Furious. Fun. But not accurate. If you're going to fly arcade, fine. But don't say it's not historically correct. You can't walk (or fly) both sides of the street at the same time.

Want accurate? Coops are as close as you will come to coordinated missions (and they sure aren't perfect). But they are one life, no score ladder, no respawn.

Take your pick but don't pick both.

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

Fillmore
08-11-2004, 11:45 PM
La7 is faster than P38L at 8000m. You got documents saying it shouldn't be?

La7 top speed is like 685 at 6000m, P38L is like 655 at 8000m. La7 does get slower as it goes above 6000m, but at 8000m it is still 10kph faster than P38L (La7 top speed goes down from 685 at 6000m to 665 at 8000m).

All this according to IL2 Compare 2.4, which I have always found to be accurate for max level speeds.

WTE_Galway
08-11-2004, 11:47 PM
The P-38 shot down more Japanese aircraft than any other USAAF fighter in WW II.

One would assume that by the time Pacific Fighters come sout hte FM will be a bit better sorted out

WUAF_Badsight
08-12-2004, 02:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tttiger:
Any comments about any plane above 7,000 meters are nonsense. The sim just doesn't model high altitude flight at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BS Alert !

the FM shows changes up to 12K for certian planes



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tttiger:
What makes you think anything in a DF arena is close to real aerial combat?

It's arcade flying. Fast. Furious. Fun. But not accurate. If you're going to fly arcade, fine. But don't say it's not historically correct. You can't walk (or fly) both sides of the street at the same time..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


why ? does the FM suddenly change when you join a DF room ?

can you not fly the same way as you do in a Coop as you can in a DF room ?!?!?! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

VF-10_Snacky
08-12-2004, 09:15 AM
Well before this turns into a arcade vs full real battle I will say that I fly both depending on my mood.
I use the same tactics in DF servers that I do in FR servers, that doesn't change.

Korolov, many have commented that your THE guy when it comes to the P38 so any tips you have would be greatly appreciated. I like the design of the plane, I like the history of the plane, and I think it is a lot better (in real life) than people (historians) give it credit for.

Before this turns into another meaningless fight I would like to know one thing about the trim of the P38.
In aircraft like the P51,P47, and P40M the default trim setting is dead on to counteract torque meaning I need not make any adjustments to my rudder trim to keep the aircraft wings level at max throttle.
The P38 however needs tweaking of the rudder trim in order to maintain wings level. Why?? This aircraft has counter rotating props which cancel out torque but the plane wants to roll at the default trim setting when it should be level. Is this part of the Flight Model limitations that everyone keeps mentioning?

http://www.x-plane.org/users/531seawolf/P38Sig2.jpg

Bull_dog_
08-12-2004, 07:22 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by (SEAWOLF):

Before this turns into another meaningless fight I would like to know one thing about the trim of the P38.
In aircraft like the P51,P47, and P40M the default trim setting is dead on to counteract torque meaning I need not make any adjustments to my rudder trim to keep the aircraft wings level at max throttle.
The P38 however needs tweaking of the rudder trim in order to maintain wings level. Why?? This aircraft has counter rotating props which cancel out torque but the plane wants to roll at the default trim setting when it should be level. Is this part of the Flight Model limitations that everyone keeps mentioning?


That is probably part of it...but even if Torque can't be totally eliminated, which I am now skeptical of, it can be toned up and down. It is not toned down all the way in the lightning for some really odd reason...it is no secret and not even a point of contention that the counter rotating props nullified torque.

I have gone through three phases in my opinion of current FM's...at first I didn't like them...I was used to Janes and CFS2 and the IL2/FB seemed too snappy, too ufo like...but after playing awhile (phase 2) I realized that they were more complicated in many ways than other FM's and most of the models were pretty close in relative terms and seemed to be getting better with every patch. It took serious time online and flying against human opponents that can wring every last hp out of an engine to understand the model's complexity...in all aspects except dive/zoom modelling. Then expansion occurred into aircraft that I am more familiar with such as Mustangs, Jugs, Lightnings, Spits etc...

I'm now in phase 3...critical technician phase. There are so many knowledgable people here that, after reading many posts and looking at old references in new ways I began to see glaring inconsistancies in damage modelling and flight modelling that I hadn't seen before. Now, while the fm is complex, it is wrong in many ways...especially in dive and compressibility. There are a handful of aircraft that are way off, both good and bad, and the rest are pretty close. Currently, I seriously doubt some of the resources Oleg uses for his modelling...the Lightning is one of the aircraft that most drastically shows the inadequacies and inaccuracies of the flight modelling...especially in zoom, dive, compressibility, high altitude climb and turn and control effectiveness at high speed, torque and slow speed climb....I won't even get into the fiasco over the M-2's.

Parts don't fall off lightnings when they dive except when entering compressibility. You could stay out of compressibility if you made it down to about 18,000 ft without entering it in the first place, the lightning had good elevator authroity up to the point of compressibilty and it abruptly vanished, and the lightning had the most gentle stall characteristics of any aircraft except when it had external stores.

I continue to hope Oleg refines the Flight model. F-J model lightnings couldn't dive or split S at bomber escort altitudes and they always began the fight at a disadvantage as 109's had a higher service ceiling...in addition, they suffered from engine failure at those altitudes.

In the pacific, Mediterranean and in medium and low altitude applications the lightning was superior in enough respects to be a competent air superiority weapon.

The L model was an absolute beast of a dogfighter...the only problem was the Mustang had taken that role by that time in the war. What engagments the L model entered in clearly showed the power boosted ailerons, along with dive breaks and good combat manueverabilty, speed and acceleration allowed it to compete favorably and win dogfights with all the latest aircraft...it was in no way at a disadvantage such as it is in FB/AEP. The L model had the highest roll rate of any fighter in the war at medium and high speed.

The dive thing really needs addressing in BoB...I only hope that it will be and that our current reality is in fact a FM limitation rather than the virtual manifistation of someone's subjective reality where all planes dive the same and lose parts at different speeds and zoom back up in fairly similar fashion.

Korolov
08-12-2004, 08:14 PM
I haven't noticed this tendency to roll or yaw while flying the P-38; my stick is too loose at the center to really notice it. The only time I do notice yaw is at low speed with just a single engine, otherwise I don't notice this torque. But like I said, my stick is loose at the center motion axis, so it might really be there.

Also, I don't think Oleg has actually interviewed a P-38 pilot, past or present, but he has done so for the P-51. Unfortunately, with all the baloney going around, and due to his stubborness, I think it's unlikely to get him to talk to one.

So, my advice for flying the P-38 consist mainly of flying higher than anyone else. If you keep the plane at very shallow dive and zoom angles, you can get a lot more mileage out of the plane. Also at shallow angles, you have much better elevator authority than you do at steep angles. If you get up to about 7000m or so, the plane will perform pretty good, but any higher and she tends to turn into a dog. This used to not be the case, but it tends to reflect with what I've read.

I think most of you are piloting the P-38L model as well, so if that is the case you need to remember that your plane will roll very fast as you approach and exceed the 600kmh mark. You can use this as a handy way to escape a enemy pursuing you if you're diving straight down and use dive brakes at the appropriate moment to pull up. With any luck your persuier will be going opposite of the direction you pull out of, giving you a chance to either escape or come around for a head-on. However, it still remains the best course of action to avoid any situation where you are at a disadvantage. This goes for any plane in the game. As long as you're sure to asses the combat situation before you go diving in, you'll be OK.

I must also stress that while the P-38 is a good turner for it's size, the latter is the main reason why you don't want to be in a furball with no energy. This becomes nullified if your target(s) have severe wing damage - if that's the case, you'll have a good chance at outturning them. This means that if you make a diving pass at a enemy, you should aim for the wings so, if it comes to that, you'll have a advantage over him in a chase.

Finally, the best advice I can give to you is to fly the plane no matter what. GET into dangerous situations, GET into disadvantages, GET shot down - it gives you experience, and over time you will learn effectively how to counter disadvantages and turn a fight completely around. Stay with the plane and try everything you can think of - the sooner you have every move possible with the plane memorized and programmed into instinct, the better you'll be. Save your thinking capacity to analize a battle and determine the best course of action, and let your instincts guide you the rest of the way.

BTW - both the P-38J and L had a higher maximum ceiling than contemporary 109s.

http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/klv_sigp38shark1a.jpg

Bull_dog_
08-12-2004, 09:03 PM
Actually Korolov, I fly the lightning alot...a whole lot and do ok against contemporary enemies especially in the j model...

I'm not looking for tips...I'm looking to correct poor modelling of compressibility. We have a certain PTO sim coming up and I'm gonna be really cranky if I can't B&Z Zekes because of crummy modelling. The more I learn about the intracies of each aircraft, the more I realize how far off this and other planes are. There are good planes to be sure, but the lightning is not one of them. The plane wasn't uber in the bomber escort role, but it was in the PTO and it was excellent at low and medium altitudes and after dive flaps and power boosted ailerons it was a dogfighter supreme ....I'm quite aware that the roll rate increases alot with speed...the problem is at 600 km/hr the elevator control begins to disappear so the good roll rate becomes less advantageous because dive flaps and dive breaks have to be utilized to manuever, which causes energy bleed and over compensation... not right. This plane would be immediately more accurate if compressibilty went away below 5000 meters like in real life and elevator control stayed around... my $.02

My plea for further refinement of the lightning FM

VF-10_Snacky
08-13-2004, 04:50 AM
Korolov I appreciate your input and I agree to a certain extent. It's just very fustrating.

It seems like anytime I get someone to fly wing with me in a P38 gets shot down right away and I end up with 3 or 4 LA7s and KI84s around me and no altitude.lol

Like the others I hope it gets some attention in PF.
First thing I would like to see is spoilers and power assisted ailerons on the J model.
Is it me or does the J model currently feel more manuverable than the L?? why is that?
Seems like it should be reversed since the L is supposed to have the bigger engines,etc. DOn't know maybe the extra weight of the engines is why.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/531seawolf/P38Sig2.jpg

OldMan____
08-13-2004, 05:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_dog_:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by (SEAWOLF):

Before this turns into another meaningless fight I would like to know one thing about the trim of the P38.
In aircraft like the P51,P47, and P40M the default trim setting is dead on to counteract torque meaning I need not make any adjustments to my rudder trim to keep the aircraft wings level at max throttle.
The P38 however needs tweaking of the rudder trim in order to maintain wings level. Why?? This aircraft has counter rotating props which cancel out torque but the plane wants to roll at the default trim setting when it should be level. Is this part of the Flight Model limitations that everyone keeps mentioning?


That is probably part of it...but even if Torque can't be totally eliminated, which I am now skeptical of, it can be toned up and down. It is not toned down all the way in the lightning for some really odd reason...it is no secret and not even a point of contention that the counter rotating props nullified torque.

I have gone through three phases in my opinion of current FM's...at first I didn't like them...I was used to Janes and CFS2 and the IL2/FB seemed too snappy, too ufo like...but after playing awhile (phase 2) I realized that they were more complicated in many ways than other FM's and most of the models were pretty close in relative terms and seemed to be getting better with every patch. It took serious time online and flying against human opponents that can wring every last hp out of an engine to understand the model's complexity...in all aspects except dive/zoom modelling. Then expansion occurred into aircraft that I am more familiar with such as Mustangs, Jugs, Lightnings, Spits etc...

I'm now in phase 3...critical technician phase. There are so many knowledgable people here that, after reading many posts and looking at old references in new ways I began to see glaring inconsistancies in damage modelling and flight modelling that I hadn't seen before. Now, while the fm is complex, it is wrong in many ways...especially in dive and compressibility. There are a handful of aircraft that are way off, both good and bad, and the rest are pretty close. Currently, I seriously doubt some of the resources Oleg uses for his modelling...the Lightning is one of the aircraft that most drastically shows the inadequacies and inaccuracies of the flight modelling...especially in zoom, dive, compressibility, high altitude climb and turn and control effectiveness at high speed, torque and slow speed climb....I won't even get into the fiasco over the M-2's.

Parts don't fall off lightnings when they dive except when entering compressibility. You could stay out of compressibility if you made it down to about 18,000 ft without entering it in the first place, the lightning had good elevator authroity up to the point of compressibilty and it abruptly vanished, and the lightning had the most gentle stall characteristics of any aircraft except when it had external stores.

I continue to hope Oleg refines the Flight model. F-J model lightnings couldn't dive or split S at bomber escort altitudes and they always began the fight at a disadvantage as 109's had a higher service ceiling...in addition, they suffered from engine failure at those altitudes.

In the pacific, Mediterranean and in medium and low altitude applications the lightning was superior in enough respects to be a competent air superiority weapon.

The L model was an absolute beast of a dogfighter...the only problem was the Mustang had taken that role by that time in the war. What engagments the L model entered in clearly showed the power boosted ailerons, along with dive breaks and good combat manueverabilty, speed and acceleration allowed it to compete favorably and win dogfights with all the latest aircraft...it was in no way at a disadvantage such as it is in FB/AEP. The L model had the highest roll rate of any fighter in the war at medium and high speed.

The dive thing really needs addressing in BoB...I only hope that it will be and that our current reality is in fact a FM limitation rather than the virtual manifistation of someone's subjective reality where all planes dive the same and lose parts at different speeds and zoom back up in fairly similar fashion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

highest roll rate than 190? Everywhere I read about p38 said.. faster roll rate of all american fighters. And faster roll rate ever goes to 190 everywhere I read.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

lbhskier37
08-13-2004, 05:47 AM
P38L should roll faster than a 190 after a certain speed. The thing with the power boosted airelons is that they dont help you at all until you get to a speed where you normally wouldnt be able to move the airelons full deflection because of stick forces. That means while most planes roll rate curves go up until a point when the pilot can't hold full deflection and then start dropping, the P38s curve will keep going up. This advantage gets kinda lost in this game because everyone can always instantly put a 50lb force on the stick, (hey P51 pilots that shed wings, think about my last line)

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Official "uber190n00b"

"Big cannons are only for skilless pilots who can't shoot shraight enough to hit a target with a smaller caliber round."-310thcopperhead