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View Full Version : Real ASW in BoB, who is with me?



FI-Aflak
02-01-2004, 11:32 AM
One thing that I have always wanted to do is go subhunting, WWII style: IN a Catalina, with primitive radar, waiting for the HuffDuff boys to give us coordinates or the RADAR to show a promising blip. Then, fly to the location, look around for a feather or, if we are lucky, a surfaced sub (seeing as WWII subs spent most of their time on the surface . . but probably tried to stay underwater when in range of the Catalinas). Then we can rocket and bomb and depth charge him into oblivion. He can crash dive and we might get some radio help from nearby sonar-equipped surface vessels . . . That would be amazing.

For this you would need several things: loadouts for the Cat (rockets, bombs, depth charges, (torpedos?), (cannons?).

And you would need a complicated submaring model and whatnot.

But I think it would be great, especially as the German submarine forces were such a huge player in the war, at least until they were all hunted down and killed.

So who else wants it?

FI-Aflak
02-01-2004, 11:32 AM
One thing that I have always wanted to do is go subhunting, WWII style: IN a Catalina, with primitive radar, waiting for the HuffDuff boys to give us coordinates or the RADAR to show a promising blip. Then, fly to the location, look around for a feather or, if we are lucky, a surfaced sub (seeing as WWII subs spent most of their time on the surface . . but probably tried to stay underwater when in range of the Catalinas). Then we can rocket and bomb and depth charge him into oblivion. He can crash dive and we might get some radio help from nearby sonar-equipped surface vessels . . . That would be amazing.

For this you would need several things: loadouts for the Cat (rockets, bombs, depth charges, (torpedos?), (cannons?).

And you would need a complicated submaring model and whatnot.

But I think it would be great, especially as the German submarine forces were such a huge player in the war, at least until they were all hunted down and killed.

So who else wants it?

02-01-2004, 12:28 PM
Yes, sounds good.

Another thing, BoB ought to have proper GCI (ground control intercept).

Lack of radio comms with ground forces is KILLING IL-2/FB. All you can do in the current sim is fly around and hope to catch some specks within the visual fishbowl radius.

In real life, any ground unit with a telephone or radio would be communicating to aircraft ground control.

The other problem, however, is that most onwhine pilots I've met, even the "full real" hardocore ones, can't be bothered to fly more than 20km to get to a target. Sorties longer than 15 minutes are garanteed to generate whining among a certain crowd. It's a damn shame.

julien673
02-01-2004, 01:56 PM
bumb http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

FI-Aflak
02-01-2004, 02:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cosmokart:
Yes, sounds good.

Another thing, BoB ought to have proper GCI (ground control intercept).

Lack of radio comms with ground forces is KILLING IL-2/FB. All you can do in the current sim is fly around and hope to catch some specks within the visual fishbowl radius.

In real life, any ground unit with a telephone or radio would be communicating to aircraft ground control.

The other problem, however, is that most onwhine pilots I've met, even the "full real" hardocore ones, can't be bothered to fly more than 20km to get to a target. Sorties longer than 15 minutes are garanteed to generate whining among a certain crowd. It's a damn shame.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I have this thread, lets go over WWII ASW warfare. Here is how I understand it, please correct any mistakes.

On land you have HuffDuff radio installations, which is jsut a directional antenna that people train in on ships/subs when the are broadcasting. When you have 2 or 3 of these, you can pinpoint the location from which the broadcast was made. You can also tell which ship/sub made the broadcast by either A) recognizing the distinctive fist of the radio man on that ship/sub or B) decrypting and reading the message. With plots and (if the enigma has been broken) intercepted messages, HC can make a few educated guesses as to the destination of given sub, and therefore of the location of a sub day to day. Thus, the Catalinas can go search the suspected area for a while.

Also, when a friendly naval vessel makes contact with a sub, it can also alert the Cats.

I'm assuming that the catalinas also flew patrols.

In addition, land, ship, and even catalina based RADAR was capable of detecting a periscope.

So thats how a catalina finds a sub. Once it is in the area, it flies a search pattern until A)It runs low on fuel and goes home or B) It spots the sub. It can spot the sub if the sub is on the surface or at periscope death by looking for the feather, or wake left by the periscope. WWII subs generally floated around on the surface because batteries suck, so this isn't generally that hard. The submarine, however, usually spots incoming aircraft in time to dive to a reasonable death, and the Catalina can't carry enough depth charges to make life hell for the submariner.

So in order for a Catalina to score a kill, it must surprise the sub. As far as I know, there are at least three ways to do this:
A)lazy lookouts on the sub
B)cloud cover, which a RADAR can see through but a lookout cannot, so the cat would just fly to really close to the target, and dive, not allowing the target the time nescessary to crash dive.
C) approad from the sun. Center the shadow of your A/C on the conning tower and make your attack.

Ordinance used: Depth Charges, bombs, rockets, (maybe torpedos, but wouldn't they be more effective against surface vessels?) and I have heard of Cannons of catalinas, but this is unconfirmed. I think it would be cool.

Now, to really pull this off, the submarines need realistic damage models. I mean, if it is purely a hitpoint system, you could make two rocket passes and the sub dives and evades. You loose, but in reality those two rocket passes probably severely damaged SOMETHING on the sub makeing it impossible for him to evade, or at least difficult.

Also needed are realistic wake modeling, and true cloudcover that actually blocks the AI vision, unlike the radar lookouts of FB. Also, coming from the 'sun sector' needs to diminish the chances of a sub noticing you.

Obviously a sub needs to be able to surface and dive, unlike FB where a sub can be either surfaced or at periscope depth but can't change. That said, to make it realistic, a sub needs to be able to dive deep, and avoid you altogether. A fun touch (like those people fleeing attacked convoys) would be mortally wounded ships lanching life rafts or lifeboats.

Of course, we will need RADAR, but I think that is already in BoB given the night fighting situations during the BoB.

So, what do you say Oleg?

Please?

02-01-2004, 02:42 PM
Ground-based radar should be absolutely mandatory for BoB.

I'm not sure if airborne radar is manageable. Those early airborne radar sets were quite complicated.

I'll be happy if there is decent ground radar and GCI. If there's a historically accurate CHAIN HOME network, I will be thrilled. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/images/map2.jpg

effte
02-01-2004, 07:32 PM
Couldn't agree more! Who can get started modelling one?

Here's an ASW-20 for reference:
http://www.flugsportzentrum-tirol.at/www_askoe/X_images/img_main/flugzeug/OE-5292g1.jpg

Can't wait to fly it in FB! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Being awake way too late, in part due to watching Americans run into one another, is a perfect excuse to be a bit of a smartass http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cheers,
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif Fred http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

FI-Aflak
02-01-2004, 09:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by effte:
Couldn't agree more! Who can get started modelling one?

Here's an ASW-20 for reference:
http://www.flugsportzentrum-tirol.at/www_askoe/X_images/img_main/flugzeug/OE-5292g1.jpg

Can't wait to fly it in FB! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

_Being awake way too late, in part due to watching Americans run into one another, is a perfect excuse to be a bit of a smartass_ http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cheers,
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif Fred http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

we've got catalinas and submarines already. We just need airborn radar and realistic sub behavior.

Is that pic a joke? I mean, gliders were around in WWII, right? I can see where a glider would be ideal for an observation plane: a good pilot can keep it aloft far longer than the endurace of any WWII aircraft, although I am not sure about stuffs over the ocean and whatnot.

I don't think many would go in for flying an observation glider looking for subs . . . but having them AI would be a nice touch.

owlwatcher
02-02-2004, 08:59 AM
Played around with the subs .
They need alot... of work.
I could never sink a submerged sub.
Can it be done?
Had everything. zizzaging DD's recon planes with bombs. Sub sank all.

02-02-2004, 04:38 PM
Yup owlwatcher. The submarines are gonna need to be different in BoB for submarine warfare to work out.

Would be nice if ships took evasive action on their own. The current ships only go in straight lines along pr-set courses. For instance, any real ship under bomber attack would be making S-curves left and right at flank speed.

The submarines are gonna need AI to dive and surface on their own.

Why not make ships and ground vehicles behave like the aircraft AI in IL-2/FB? They would still have waypoints, but they'd be capable of doing things independently along the way.

Oooh, and fog banks over the North Sea. I'd love to see some more detailed weather. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Zen--
02-02-2004, 08:55 PM
I have no idea what you're talking about Aflak, but I like the :FI: quite a bit, so I'll throw in my support


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-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen

rbstr44
02-03-2004, 06:35 AM
Great ideas, but I think the developers will have their hands full trying to get BoB out the door in a year or two. Could be an add-on, or a separate product using the BoB engine.

I think such a product would have broad appeal particularly if it encompassed convoy protection against wolfpacks--so there would be need to be large area ocean maps to support this in addition to near-shore maps from the BoB product. Also, add a flyable FW-200 Kondor as an option for the German side to fight back.

effte
02-03-2004, 07:01 AM
The aircraft in the picture is a glider named ASW-20. Nothing to do with Anti-Sub Warfare... but I'd still like it in the game! Powered flight is for cowards!

And that's the ONLY reason why I always get stuck in front of someone. I do it intentionally, hoping to get my engine shot out! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gliders as recce platforms would be rather useless. Too little time to focus on the outside world while thermalling. Over water, there are no thermals to speak of.

Cheers,
Fred

FI-Aflak
02-03-2004, 08:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zen--:
I have no idea what you're talking about Aflak, but I like the :FI: quite a bit, so I'll throw in my support


http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I love the FI also Zen. And you know what I'm talking about: Catalina flying boats searching for and killing German submarines!

One of the most important operations of the war, and yet it has never (to my knowledge) been simulated before.

I agree that ships and land vehicles need new AI. Imagine a jeep zig-zagging and careening down a road as a fighter sprays the area with bullets. or a convoy that leaves the road to head for a forest or something.

I mean,m they CAN do things on their own (when you kill a vehicle, the ones behind will get out of line and pass) so its within reason!