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Yellonet
07-26-2004, 05:30 AM
Couldn't we have that? It would be a option on the waypoints.. submerged, periscope depth or on surface... wouldn't really need to be submerged.. just not visible or just a model of a periscope when needed. When in periscope depth you could drop bombs with a few seconds delay to sink them.

Would be cool to fly around in some bomber with depth charges and wait for the subs to put their snorkel up and give away their position http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif


- Yellonet

Yellonet
07-26-2004, 05:30 AM
Couldn't we have that? It would be a option on the waypoints.. submerged, periscope depth or on surface... wouldn't really need to be submerged.. just not visible or just a model of a periscope when needed. When in periscope depth you could drop bombs with a few seconds delay to sink them.

Would be cool to fly around in some bomber with depth charges and wait for the subs to put their snorkel up and give away their position http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif


- Yellonet

Latico
07-26-2004, 10:32 AM
Currently, FB/AEP already has a submerged Sub that you can add to a mission in the FMB. I used 2 in a sea battle I built. One of them sank the Tripitz with torps. The other ships fired on the periscope as it passed within range, too.

RedDeth
07-26-2004, 12:37 PM
DUDE.... ya cant even see planes past 2000 meters in this game. they be come dots. imagine a periscope...... totally invisible

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Latico
07-26-2004, 06:00 PM
They have a small wake.

If you are on anti-sub patrol you would be farely close to the deck, maybe only a couple hundred meters altitude and flying slow.

Snootles
07-26-2004, 09:55 PM
And you would have observers.

ElAurens
07-26-2004, 10:02 PM
The submerged subs in AEP wil fire as many torps as it takes to sink a vessel. Over 20+ if need be, in rapid succession. Totally wrong.

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heywooood
07-26-2004, 10:45 PM
they must not be subbing 'full switch'...

unlimited ammo light is 'on'



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"Check your guns"

ElAurens
07-27-2004, 05:10 AM
Neg heywooood, this was in an online coop with only externals, minimap path and speedbar enabled.

The sub was coming up behind the Marat, both ships travelling the same direction, so the Marat presented only a very small target for the sub. It fired innumerable shots at the Marat, all in very quick succession. At one point I counted 18 torpedo tracks in the water at once.

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PlaneEater
07-27-2004, 01:41 PM
Well, maybe the Silent Hunter team can give Oleg a hand. He did lend them the IL-2 aircraft for their new PT boat game...

VOL_Hans
07-27-2004, 02:46 PM
Spotting subs all depends on many factors. And we will never have it correct in IL-2 or PF, I garuntee it.

Take the periscope mast for an example... If, for example a Type-VII U-boat is stalking a convoy submerged, he moves relatively slow, 7 knots top speed. At periscope depth, he moves even slower, as slow as 1 knot so as to leave no feather because stealth is key. Scope up for very short periods only as well. That means you have almost no chance of spotting it from the air...


Schnorkling is a different matter... All subs move around 5 knots when they schnorkel if they want to go anywhere. Less chance of you spotting it than if it was surfaced, yes, but still simple enough to see. Both periscope and schnorkel are up and leaving wakes, both reflect radar as well...
The U-Boat hopes to see you in time, and crash dive to avoid your depthcharges.

Being a sub-sim skipper since the days of Aces of the Deep and Silent Hunter II, I can tell you that there is an interesting relationship between U-Boats and Planes. As long as you stay smart, they never will find your U-Boat...

Get dumb and get busted on the surface, then it's a different story. If it's daytime, man the Flak and blast him out of the sky! 3x dual 20mm's and a 37mm auto can really put the hurt on a plane. If it's nighttime, they have radar, and spotlights on that plane, best bet is to jump to flank speed and crash dive while going full rudder to one side.

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Athosd
07-27-2004, 06:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VOL_Hans:
Spotting subs all depends on many factors. And we will never have it correct in IL-2 or PF, I garuntee it.

Take the periscope mast for an example... If, for example a Type-VII U-boat is stalking a convoy submerged, he moves relatively slow, 7 knots top speed. At periscope depth, he moves even slower, as slow as 1 knot so as to leave no feather because stealth is key. Scope up for very short periods only as well. That means you have almost no chance of spotting it from the air...


Schnorkling is a different matter... All subs move around 5 knots when they schnorkel if they want to go anywhere. Less chance of you spotting it than if it was surfaced, yes, but still simple enough to see. Both periscope and schnorkel are up and leaving wakes, both reflect radar as well...
The U-Boat hopes to see you in time, and crash dive to avoid your depthcharges.

Being a sub-sim skipper since the days of Aces of the Deep and Silent Hunter II, I can tell you that there is an interesting relationship between U-Boats and Planes. As long as you stay smart, they never will find your U-Boat...

Get dumb and get busted on the surface, then it's a different story. If it's daytime, man the Flak and blast him out of the sky! 3x dual 20mm's and a 37mm auto can really put the hurt on a plane. If it's nighttime, they have radar, and spotlights on that plane, best bet is to jump to flank speed and crash dive while going full rudder to one side.

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Though the cavitation from the flank speed may get you nailed by a guided torpedo http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Cheers

Athos

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.

VOL_Hans
07-27-2004, 07:20 PM
The guided torpedoes were much less accurate, reliable, and deadly than you might think.

Those torpedoes were designed to force the sub to surface, not kill it. I know of atleast one Japanese sub that needed two hits to send it down. I would rather risk sucking up a torpedo on the dive than bombs and cannonfire on the surface.

Also, the reason for the hard turn is so that the Torp has issues locking on, and once you start going down it's standard practice to kill the E-motors, and reverse to the other side.

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Athosd
07-28-2004, 03:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VOL_Hans:
The guided torpedoes were much less accurate, reliable, and deadly than you might think.

Those torpedoes were designed to force the sub to surface, not kill it. I know of atleast one Japanese sub that needed two hits to send it down. I would rather risk sucking up a torpedo on the dive than bombs and cannonfire on the surface.

Also, the reason for the hard turn is so that the Torp has issues locking on, and once you start going down it's standard practice to kill the E-motors, and reverse to the other side.

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't know if they were employed in the Pacific - but the Mk24 "mine" was remarkably effective in the Atlantic. The submariners it was used against didn't know about it (top secret stuff) - or they would have changed their tactics to make it much less effective (the acoustic homing head could only track a cavitating prop).
Records show 346 were used in action and the weapon was credited with destruction of 38 subs and damage to an additional 33. I'd think a 20% success rate was pretty exceptional under the circumstances.
My source for the stats is an Alfred Price article "Guided missiles make their mark #1".

That notwithstanding I'm sure the tactics you pointed out would be the best solution in most instances.

Oh - and per the topic, yes Submerging submarines would be a nice addition.

Salute

Athos

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.

VOL_Hans
07-28-2004, 03:38 PM
I know that those tactics work in simulators.

I've had atleast 30 of those things dropped on various sub types, and you loose them every time.

The idea is to be underwater and in the dive before he drops the torp, thats when you reverse the turn and cut the engines.

Turn with existing intertia and escape!
Timeing is key though...Don't get enough speed up before you start the dive and you cant reverse your turn,it might follow the existing wake and impact.

Wait too long to cut the engines, and it'll slam you pretty hard

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VOL_Hans
07-28-2004, 05:53 PM
~S~ all

I noticed that some had asked about the wake left by a periscope mast and spotting that while a submarine was running submerged.

I think that they may have over estimated the wake that a slow submarine would leave. For example, here is a picture showing the periscope and schnorkel of a Type-IX submarine moveing at 2 knots. Notice that there is no wake... http://server6.uploadit.org/files/IVJG51Hans-Sub1.JPG

Now, take a sub on a crash dive. Here is that same sub immediately after the top of the conning tower goes sub-surface. That wake would dissapear about 5-15 seconds later. Periscope mast and schnorkel left up to show conning-tower location, forward speed of 10 knots. http://server6.uploadit.org/files/IVJG51Hans-Sub2.JPG


Oh, BTW, I forgot to mention. There are three other scope masts from other subs submerged in various places in that first picture. Lets see if anybody can see them... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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