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VOL_Hans
06-28-2004, 12:15 AM
~S~ all

I don't know if this has been brought up before here, but I would like to request that we get the KI-61 Hein as a flyable aircraft.

Since it appears that the Bf-109 series will not be included in PF, it would be nice to have the Japanese knockoff of it!

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg

VOL_Hans
06-28-2004, 12:15 AM
~S~ all

I don't know if this has been brought up before here, but I would like to request that we get the KI-61 Hein as a flyable aircraft.

Since it appears that the Bf-109 series will not be included in PF, it would be nice to have the Japanese knockoff of it!

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg

necrobaron
06-28-2004, 12:19 AM
I seem to recall seeing the Ki-61 and a cockpit for it in an update a while back before PF was announced. I'd guess we will indeed get it... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"Not all who wander are lost."

WUAF_Badsight
06-28-2004, 05:03 AM
Hans ..... its so in the game m8

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ElAurens
06-28-2004, 05:37 AM
Hans, a study of the structure and details of the Ki 61 shows that only the clueless would call it a "knock off" of the Bf 109. If anything it more closely resembles an He 100.

The performance of the Ki61 surpassed the 109E as well. Even with it's lighter wing loading.

The Japanese aero industry had some very innovative and creative designs and designers. They were only hindered by the out of date tactical doctrine of the Japanese Military, and
their industries inability to (sometimes) translate their designs into reliable operational aircraft.

The "copycat" tendencies you refer to are a product of their immediate post war realities. And racial sterotyping in the West.

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VOL_Hans
06-28-2004, 06:54 AM
Aurens: Nope.

Though at times it can look similar to an HE-100, it's not really similar.

When it first appeared, it was thought to have been a liscence built version of the Bf-109 or an Italian fighter, thus the nickname "Tony".

Truth be told, it's a lil bit of everything I think. Some He-100 here, a lil 109F there, a bit a 109E tossed in there, some Veltro attack fighter cobbled on here...

You get the picture.

But, it's nice to know it will be in PF, the only question now is...what weapons set?

We could get one of atleast three combinations:

2x 12.7 cowl + 2x 7.7 wings [ping-pong launcher...]

2x 12.7 cowl + 2x 12.7 wings
Or
2x 12,7 cowl + 2x 20mm wings

Whatever we get, i'm sure i'll have some fun with my BF-61...I mean, KI-109...I mean... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg

Penguin_PFF
06-28-2004, 11:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The "copycat" tendencies you refer to are a product of their immediate post war realities. And racial sterotyping in the West.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And a fine tradition of copying things that goes back to the late Tokugawa period. It was official policy to copy, starting in the 1800's, as a fast way of catching up with the West. It worked, too.

To just take the average equipment of an IJN airplane for an example... The Sakae was a copy of a Wright engine design (IIRC), the Type 97 7.7mm IJN machine gun was a copy of the Vickers Class E machine gun, the Type 99 cannon was a copy of the MG-FF, the Type 98 gunsight was a copy of the Revi 2B, and a lot of the gauges were copied from the RAF, even using the same typeface on the gauge for numbers. Some of the radio and direction finding systems were direct copies of American systems, almost right down to the nameplate on the electronics boxes.

Not to knock Japanese engineering (copying and using other designs as a starting point takes work too, and they weren't always copying) but I think it's a stretch to call things like that "hampered creativity".

zoomar2
06-28-2004, 11:54 AM
Let's see, the Ki61 has an inverted V engine, a ventral fuselage radiator, low wings with inward retracting gear, and a tail assemblage. The Ki-61 is no way a "knock off" of the Bf-109. It - and the closely related Ki-60 - was an attempt to produce a European-style fighter making use of things learned by watching the first two years of the European war(as was the P-51 for that matter - which nobody would call a Spitfire knock off). Although its engine and armament were copies of license-built German equipment, its design owed nothing to the Bf-109. The Italian Mc202 also had a German engine unusual for Italian planes but nobody calls it a Bf-109 knock off. The Hein is its own plane entirely, and if it hadn't been for US mis-information early in the war, nobody would think it was a copy of anything.

The J8M1 is a true "knock off" of the Me-163, however...and I hope we get one in PF just for fun.

Penguin_PFF
06-28-2004, 04:03 PM
Right. I certainly wouldn't call the Ki-61 a knockoff of the Bf 109... It had design features borrowed from German fighters, certainly, but it wasn't a rivet-for-rivet copy of anything. Call it "inspired by".

I think they had some help with the engine though... Something about a German designer actually working for the engine manufacturer. I can't recall details & I'm too lazy to dig out my references on the Ki-61.

VW-IceFire
06-28-2004, 04:42 PM
It does have some German influence...namely the MG151/20 cannons that were brought over by ship for use in the Tony as well as the engine and the common confusion of the Tony for the Bf 109. The Tony is really its own plane...its as much of a copy of the 109 as any plane is of any other. Its designed along similar lines and no doubt the 109 and others were used as a basis to form similar conclusions. The Tony was one of the few fighters in the Japanese Army that gave the Allies a real pause. Its got the speed, later version had the firepower, and it wasn't as vulnerable as its cousins and apparently it was capable of sustaining dives with some of the Allied fighters so many types that used to be able to outdive Japanese fighters were unable to do so effectively.

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VOL_Hans
06-28-2004, 09:55 PM
I am in no way suggesting that it is a rivet for rivet copy of the Bf-109. But keep in mind that they are not only similar planes, but the Japanese had bought a Bf-109E for testing...

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SkyChimp
06-29-2004, 06:41 PM
Ki-61-III would be nice:

http://modelersweaponsshop.freeyellow.com/ki61III1.jpg

Regards,
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VOL_Hans
06-29-2004, 09:37 PM
Yhea, the bubble top would be OK...

But I really just want the razorback version of it.

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg

michaelbjork
06-30-2004, 04:46 AM
Yep, the teardrop version is nice, but i too prefer the razorback version. Hopefully a "Army" version too! Anybody knows if PF will cover some "Army action" too. Or will it be only the IJN??

ElAurens
06-30-2004, 05:46 AM
The Army was the only service to fly the Ki61, and it's superior derivative, the Ki 100.

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ImpStarDuece
06-30-2004, 06:37 AM
The Ki-61 is my favourite Japanese, single engined inline powered fighter of all time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Its a must have. It was the ONLY sinlge seat, inline powered Japanese fighter to make it into serious production.

Don't know if the Ki-100 was THAT much better, bit of 6 of one, half dozen of another really but the pilots liked it better so that counts for a lot in my book.

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michaelbjork
06-30-2004, 07:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElAurens:
The Army was the only service to fly the Ki61, and it's superior derivative, the Ki 100.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, got that.. So we will be seeing some Army action then! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VOL_Hans
06-30-2004, 05:39 PM
Yes, the Hein would be a land based Army Airforce fighter. It lacked the tailhook for carrier ops, as well as folding wings to make it fit.

I'm not sure, but if you could toss B-25's off a carrier, maybe you could toss Hein's off a one too, but they'd have to put down elsewhere.

The A6M2 was interesting in one respect: Only about the outer 8inches on the wingtip folded up! What good does that do? And the A6M5 had no folding at all!

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg

VOL_Hans
07-15-2004, 07:01 PM
Sorry to bring this back up again since it's a bit dated...

But are there any dev shots of the Ki-61 available? I tried looking through the archive but saw none. Anybody have any saved, and can we see the finished product in the next update please?

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg

Gibbage1
07-15-2004, 07:27 PM
I think the 8" thing was to fit in the elivator of some Jap carriers. A6M5 "clipped" the wingtip to fit and it also improved roll rate.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VOL_Hans:
Yes, the Hein would be a land based Army Airforce fighter. It lacked the tailhook for carrier ops, as well as folding wings to make it fit.

I'm not sure, but if you could toss B-25's off a carrier, maybe you could toss Hein's off a one too, but they'd have to put down elsewhere.

The A6M2 was interesting in one respect: Only about the outer 8inches on the wingtip folded up! What good does that do? And the A6M5 had no folding at all!

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gibbage1
07-15-2004, 07:28 PM
Look in the Netwings design forum. Many were posted there including a complete cockpit.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VOL_Hans:
Sorry to bring this back up again since it's a bit dated...

But are there any dev shots of the Ki-61 available? I tried looking through the archive but saw none. Anybody have any saved, and can we see the finished product in the next update please?

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fliger747
07-15-2004, 07:33 PM
The biggest problem area with the Ki61 was the reliability of the powerplant. At that state in the war Japaneese industry did not have the wherewithall in materials or capability to manufature a reasonable facimili of the German DB 601.

When the engine ran, it was an effective fighter. I do like the plane! There is an excellent 1% CFS2 version of this aircraft.

In the Pacific Ocean area, with it's water and long distances, the remarkable, dependable, phenomanal R2800 was a real war winner. Possibly the best overall piston aircraft engine ever built!