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View Full Version : Black smoke = fire? (BF109)



HART_dreyer
06-27-2004, 11:53 AM
A few things I've always wanted to take up for discussion. Whenever you get shot and black engine smoke occurs along with oil on your windshield the aircraft will ALWAYS ignite into fire sooner or later, no matter what power settings/RPM you run your engine on. You can even put throttle to idle or turn the engine off and it will eventually begin to burn. Is this realistic? Sounds silly to me, if you're not putting any power to the engine there's no source of ignition for a fire to break out is there?

Secondly, when flying the 109-K4 (only one I've noticed it with but I think it happends to all 1944+ 109's) the engine will always **** out on you eventually. For instance: I leave MW50 on from take-off and don't bother toggling it again due to the danger of damaging my engine. With radiators open you can run at 105% power pretty much indefineatly without ever going into overheat. But still once you've flown for 40 or so minutes (down to 25% fuel if you start with 100%) the engine will always start dying even if you have suffered no damanage nor overheated the engine once. Is it supposed to be like this? Or does anyone know the cause?

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)

HART_dreyer
06-27-2004, 11:53 AM
A few things I've always wanted to take up for discussion. Whenever you get shot and black engine smoke occurs along with oil on your windshield the aircraft will ALWAYS ignite into fire sooner or later, no matter what power settings/RPM you run your engine on. You can even put throttle to idle or turn the engine off and it will eventually begin to burn. Is this realistic? Sounds silly to me, if you're not putting any power to the engine there's no source of ignition for a fire to break out is there?

Secondly, when flying the 109-K4 (only one I've noticed it with but I think it happends to all 1944+ 109's) the engine will always **** out on you eventually. For instance: I leave MW50 on from take-off and don't bother toggling it again due to the danger of damaging my engine. With radiators open you can run at 105% power pretty much indefineatly without ever going into overheat. But still once you've flown for 40 or so minutes (down to 25% fuel if you start with 100%) the engine will always start dying even if you have suffered no damanage nor overheated the engine once. Is it supposed to be like this? Or does anyone know the cause?

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)

p1ngu666
06-27-2004, 12:06 PM
start engine, then put on mw50 at idle revs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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OldMan____
06-27-2004, 12:09 PM
After G2 all 109 engines seem to be pretty short lived ones. So I fly at 70-80% power almost all the time.. and ONLY engane MW50 when in pursuit (tha clasical one at deck.. cahsing those P51 :P ) or being pursued.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

DeBaer.534
06-27-2004, 12:12 PM
when theres black smoke, theres already fire...
but not a large one, the only thing to prevent it from burning stronger is flying fast and opening the radiators.
putting it out is only possible with fire extinguishers.
its not silly.

HART_dreyer
06-27-2004, 12:15 PM
Are you sure? Because there's no visual fire. But if that's how its designed to be I guess it makes sense.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)

tfu_iain1
06-27-2004, 12:18 PM
you have to engage the mw50 at low revs, certainly sub 100% revs, then bring the engine up, otherwise it knackers the engine. fw190 d-9 1945 should do the same thing. its a feature... if you follow the correct operating procedure, your 109k4 should give you hours of trouble free intercepting.

HART_dreyer
06-27-2004, 12:19 PM
I already know that, I'm not a beginner! Stop posting generic responses that has nothing to do with my post!

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)

tfu_iain1
06-27-2004, 12:24 PM
also, smoke does not necessarily mean fire.

if the oil sump is hit, oil can spray out on to the exhausts and exhaust manifold, and hot parts of the engine. the oil wont catch fire, but will make a load of smoke- this is roughly how smoke machines work, except with diesel instead of oil (and diesel pretty much is oil) if you dont believe me, take your car for a nice spirited drive, stop, open the bonnet and drop a couple of drips on the exhaust manifold. also, my previous post was not entirely unrelated to your first one as you do mention the k4's engine dying, and the number one cause of that is misuse of the mw-50 system. you also did not explain that you knew how to use it already. thus is was not an unreasonable assumption for me to make. although late war 109s did have short life engines in reality, from my personal experience in FB the k4 engine only dies from bullets, overheating or mw-50 misuse. perhaps you set the prop pitch to manual and over-revved it? that is another possibility.

HART_dreyer
06-27-2004, 12:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tfu_iain1:
also, smoke does not necessarily mean fire.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In IL2 though Black Smoke will ALWAYS mean "ENGINE: Be aware! I'm going to start burning soon!"... Grey smoke only means "ENGINE: Watch out! You'll have a good amount of time without problems left but then I'm going to starting dying!"

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)

DeBaer.534
06-27-2004, 12:28 PM
yes, black smoke is always fire.
its the oil burning there, when the flames become visual, the planes structure is burning.
at least thats the way it should be.

Chuck_Older
06-27-2004, 12:35 PM
Hart-

just because the engine is off, that doesn't mean that a fire can't happen. The engine is still hot, and a smoldering bit of wire could also still get turned into roaring flame by gas spraying from a ruptured fuel line.

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tfu_iain1
06-27-2004, 12:38 PM
true, but engine off reduces the chances of fire, as that would shut down the fuel injection and stop more fuel being pumped into the engine.

HART_dreyer
06-27-2004, 12:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tfu_iain1:
although late war 109s did have short life engines in reality, from my personal experience in FB the k4 engine only dies from bullets, overheating or mw-50 misuse. perhaps you set the prop pitch to manual and over-revved it? that is another possibility.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. I just leave MW50 on before I even turn my engine on to avoid the hassle. I've noticed no difference by just having it on all the time, I thought it was supposed to run out but it doesn't seem like it in the game.

I don't mess with prop-pitch in the 109-K4 so that's not the reason. I did nothing irregular that would cause damage to my engine but it will always die out after 40-50 minutes flying on a high power level. Now this is fine with me if that's how it's supposed to be modeled and not a bug. But maybe there should be some sort of indication then that you're pushing the engine too hard? Like the overheat message? If I'm not getting an overheating message for the duration of my flight I must assume my engine is not in any danger of being worn down. I have tracks showing what I mean too. I'll try to find one. It also won't instantly die, but you'll notice that it starts giving off a mild squeaky noise which just gets worse and worse as your engines power dies off.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

tfu_iain1
06-27-2004, 12:42 PM
i guess the engine wears out without overheating as long as your keep it fast enough... the pistons are still slamming up and down hard, wearing the cylinders. i dont run the engine full all the time so i havent had it die like that yet. most engines dont like being run full power all the time.

ZG77_Lignite
06-27-2004, 01:07 PM
The cause of your engine damage is 'run 105% power pretty much indefinately'. Though it should be obvious, you can NOT run 105% power indefinitely, especially with MW50 engaged (higher manifold pressures). You are running out of MW50 (which has a limited supply), and after that you are overboosting your engine, simulated in FB by knackering and eventual failure.

Though I'm unfamiliar with the historic or FB specifics, MW50 (once engaged) will operate at above '100%' power (or much more likely a specific RPM/manifold pressure combination). I believe it is unknown how FB handles MW50 below these power settings; it may or may not use a miniscule amount of MW50 at lower power settings, in which case you will eventually run out.

The short answer is, stop racing around at high power 'pretty much indefinately'.

HART_dreyer
06-27-2004, 01:36 PM
Yar. That's fine, but if the engine actually can't run at a high power setting for long periods of time should it not then overheat and any damage be caused by the overheat? I thought that too high manifold pressure over time will cause overheat and thus damage will occur. If it's not overheating I don't make sense to me why the engine should be damaged. :O

How do you tell when the MW50 run out though? There's no indication for this and it doesn't seem to be modeled.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

VW-IceFire
06-27-2004, 02:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HART_dreyer:
A few things I've always wanted to take up for discussion. Whenever you get shot and black engine smoke occurs along with oil on your windshield the aircraft will ALWAYS ignite into fire sooner or later, no matter what power settings/RPM you run your engine on. You can even put throttle to idle or turn the engine off and it will eventually begin to burn. Is this realistic? Sounds silly to me, if you're not putting any power to the engine there's no source of ignition for a fire to break out is there?

Secondly, when flying the 109-K4 (only one I've noticed it with but I think it happends to all 1944+ 109's) the engine will always **** out on you eventually. For instance: I leave MW50 on from take-off and don't bother toggling it again due to the danger of damaging my engine. With radiators open you can run at 105% power pretty much indefineatly without ever going into overheat. But still once you've flown for 40 or so minutes (down to 25% fuel if you start with 100%) the engine will always start dying even if you have suffered no damanage nor overheated the engine once. Is it supposed to be like this? Or does anyone know the cause?

Regards,
dreyer
_http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Even if you aren't putting power to the engine after an oil leak occurs, you do have to remember that its probably been running for quite some time and its rediculously hot. Even the reduction of power isn't likely to save the engine...the other point being that the fire may already have started inside of the engine and its only a matter of time before the entire thing starts cooking.

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plumps_
06-27-2004, 02:30 PM
My generic response:

MW50 used to be infinite, but that was changed in a recent patch. Only apply it when necessary or you'll ruin your engine sooner or later.

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HART_dreyer
06-27-2004, 02:39 PM
and how do you tell when the MW50 run out?

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

Shifty101
06-27-2004, 02:54 PM
When your engine dies you know you're out of MW-50.

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plumps_
06-27-2004, 03:05 PM
Use the force.

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