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View Full Version : After SH3: Time for a new sub concept?



Xanthippus
09-11-2004, 01:46 PM
Out of any submarine game you could possibly do, since they were invented, right up to the modern day, no matter what side you could pick, it would always be the German submarine campaign of 1939-45 that offers the most varied historical and in-depth gameplay.

As an idea though, i have to admit, it would be interesting to have an 'immense' submarine game. Instead of restricting ourselves to a narrow fixed historical narrative, why not be a little inventive and come up with a political situation, war development, that is unconnected to hitorical events.

You could say base it around a 1920's level of technology and have a global conflict breaking out (possibly not even on a political/geographic map of our world).

Basically if we were to look at 1918 all the ingredients of submarine warfare were starting to come together there (radio, convoys, asdic etc) it would be great to have a war situation start off from the 1920's and say carry on upto the point of a nuclear submarine.

Obviously it would require a talented story teller that could emerse us into such a conflict, with an ability to introduce war events which suitably vary the scenario (although not to the point at which the simulation has to be 'balanced'). Even better would be the ability to have variable game patterns so that the course of the conflict, at its geo-strategic level (and thus operational and tactical levels too), is never identical.

Obviously this would be an immense project with many pitfalls, as true history offers plentiful resources and always interests those who want to 'live' the experience. Yet, as capabilities increase i think that it could make for a wonderful game if done right, offering a fresh and intriging challenge to those of us that know so well the few limited submarine campaigns of significance.

What do you think?

Xanthippus
09-11-2004, 01:46 PM
Out of any submarine game you could possibly do, since they were invented, right up to the modern day, no matter what side you could pick, it would always be the German submarine campaign of 1939-45 that offers the most varied historical and in-depth gameplay.

As an idea though, i have to admit, it would be interesting to have an 'immense' submarine game. Instead of restricting ourselves to a narrow fixed historical narrative, why not be a little inventive and come up with a political situation, war development, that is unconnected to hitorical events.

You could say base it around a 1920's level of technology and have a global conflict breaking out (possibly not even on a political/geographic map of our world).

Basically if we were to look at 1918 all the ingredients of submarine warfare were starting to come together there (radio, convoys, asdic etc) it would be great to have a war situation start off from the 1920's and say carry on upto the point of a nuclear submarine.

Obviously it would require a talented story teller that could emerse us into such a conflict, with an ability to introduce war events which suitably vary the scenario (although not to the point at which the simulation has to be 'balanced'). Even better would be the ability to have variable game patterns so that the course of the conflict, at its geo-strategic level (and thus operational and tactical levels too), is never identical.

Obviously this would be an immense project with many pitfalls, as true history offers plentiful resources and always interests those who want to 'live' the experience. Yet, as capabilities increase i think that it could make for a wonderful game if done right, offering a fresh and intriging challenge to those of us that know so well the few limited submarine campaigns of significance.

What do you think?

Shan_Hackett
09-11-2004, 02:43 PM
theres already a "sub sim" - said loosely.
that has 1940's tech' with an alternate history slant.

Not checked it out myslef - Only interested in "fact" based simulations - i think its called "Enigma: Rising tide"

Xanthippus
09-11-2004, 03:06 PM
Looks interesting, downloading the demo now, anyone got any experience with this game?

Have to admit i don't place a 'huge' amount of faith in on-line worlds, i think a game that focuses on single player with a multi-player option would do the concept greater justice. Yet, saying that, i don't have all that much experience with on-line worlds recently and i may think differently after playing this demo.

Teddy Bar
09-11-2004, 05:50 PM
There is such a game already which is ENIGMA: Rising Tide (http://www.warfleet.net/)

Apart from the above game format, I cannot see this working for say SHIV.

Cheers,

Teddy B¤r

Erich Hartmann
09-11-2004, 09:09 PM
Not for me, I really hope they always stick to the historical facts. And well German side WWII is the best. Also interested in German WWI and Italian WWII.

Xanthippus
09-12-2004, 05:46 AM
Just played the demo for "Enigma: Rising Tide"...i won't be getting into that game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gameplay and details very simplistic (as i expected from that type of game) and very little to offer anyone who is looking for a real WW2 submarine experience. Although fair play to the game, some nice graphics, but when SH3 is with us it'll fall a long way behind in that area too.

Redwine
09-13-2004, 08:50 AM
There are many good thinks to do if there are producers interesting............

a] A Pacific version able to manage usa and japanesse subs.

Just think about to hunt for the Yamato or to sail an I-400 and launch two torpedo planes against the Panama Channel Doors or launch from a nodriza sub one midget sub in Pearl Harbour..... so great !


b] Incorporate other nations subs in SH3 as italians, brithish and usa subs.........


c] A good WW1 subsim.......... so good too.

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lonewulf44
09-13-2004, 10:49 AM
I'm up for alternate history expansion packs, but not in the orginal game. What I would like to see is especially with the dynamic campaign is more like war changing results in the story line. If you and the wolfpacks can starve off Britain, or keep convoys from reaching russia, or sinking ship with high level personal on board, you should somehow change the course of the war. Just a thought...

Long Live Prussia!

Tallaght
09-14-2004, 10:03 AM
I agree totally with your last post there Lonewulf44. I'm a great fan of 'alternative history' and while i'm absolutely delighted by the Dev's decision to incorporate a dynamic campaign i'm a little disapointed that the campaign will end in a German defeat no matter what. Without getting into the historical 'ins and outs' of 'could German U-Boats win the war ect...' i would like to see a 'Dynamic Campaign Generator' incorporated into the game. A very easy way to keep track of the U-Boat players overall score and weather or not his side is winning is by using the following procedure:

Take the figures from Clay Blairs books 'Hitler's U-Boat War, The Hunters and The Hunted' for average tonnage sunk X number of U-Boats X number of (U-Boat) days at Sea. This formula is a great indication of the effectiveness of the U-Boat campaign and shows the decline in the U-Boats fortunes after mid-1941 (despite sinking ever greater number of ships up to March 1941 the average per U-Boat continued to fall). The data is availbale for the major chapters of the war in the Books. Now if you (your U-Boat) can outperform this average then you dynamic campaign has Germany wining etc.

Not only this i would like to see a campaign setup screen where i can adjust the following parameters (with the option in each parameter for the correct 'historical' setting):

1. Number of U-Boats at Start of the War.
2. Number of Allied Escorts at Start of the War.
3. Types of U-Boats Available at Start of the War.
4. U-Boat Building Rate.
5. Escort Building Rate.
6. Merchant Shipping Building Rate.
7. Torpedo performance (magnetic exploder issues/depth keeping/contact exploder isses) i.e can i start the war with or without these problems.
8. Allied Technology Introductions (slower, historical or faster).
9. German Technology Introductions (slower, historical or faster).
10. Allied New Ship Type Introductions (slower,historical or faster).
11. German New U-Boat Type Introductions (slower,historical or faster).
12. Wide selection of prototype and 'paper only' U-Boats to select, like the ocean going Walter Boats and Kreislauf Closed-Cycle Diesel boats
13. Average Convoy size (smaller,historical or larger).
14. Average Escort size (smaller,historical or larger).

Also i'd like to see the game be easy to mod so that even if these things are not incorporated the gaming community can tweak and fiddle with the game endlessly. I for one want to be able to sail the large Walter Boat on which the Type XXI was based. Based on Doneitz's own comments
this type could have been in service in 1943 if he and the OKM has been a little more aggressive in promoting the technology. Doneitz himself told Hitler in late 1941 that the current U-Boat Types were 'obsolete' and that the U-Boat war could only be won by new types.

Tallaght.

Deepcold
09-14-2004, 05:55 PM
Enigma Rising Tide sucks!! They're calling their game a simulator but it's not. Nothing than more than an arcade shooter. So far, for me, the best sub sim is Silent Hunter II with the Pacific Aces mod and the high rez pack from SubSim.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shan_Hackett:
theres already a "sub sim" - said loosely.
that has 1940's tech' with an alternate history slant.

Not checked it out myslef - Only interested in "fact" based simulations - i think its called "Enigma: Rising tide"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://graphics.theartofwarfare.net/sigs/SCR_deepcold.jpg

Don't ask yourself what the teammates can do for you but, ask yourself what you can do for them....

Gouldjg
09-17-2004, 06:17 PM
Have you guys tried Sub command and if so what were your impressions after spening so much time learning the controls and stations.

I thought it was great at first and probably will buy the new version just to show my support for sum game creators in general. Boy I hated those madcap torps.