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XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 12:38 AM
ok.. This time I really had it.. Lagg-3 really pi*ses me off.. most overmodelled plane in the game.. everything is overmodelled in this plane, climb, armament, sustained turn, max speed, inability to overheat, durability, range...

Question: DOES IT EVER GET FIXXED? I Just wasted 30 min of my time when I tried to chase a Lagg-3 '41 with F-4-. now F_4 should be 30 kmh Faster on Sealevel than Lagg3, but in this game its seriously is not. Lagg-3 can use unlimited time of WEP + radiator closed.. top speed of 490 kmh on sealevel for unlimited time.. is it just me, or THIS just sucks..

I really hope 1.2 will fix this long-time overmodelled plane.. in 1.2RC it was not fixxed, you got the overheating message, but you still could use the engine on full power for unlimited time. And other thing is how this thing turns so damn well, even when we have a special version of Lagg3 with 5 weapons.. shouldn't that make the plane even more heavy, since 2x shkas 2x ubs, 1x Shvak on the nose.. I think that is a heavy weaponload concentrated on the nose.. and still its the most stable gun platform in the game, with 5 weapons on the nose.. such a heavy plane and still turns so well with over 1000 kg lighter plane like Yak-1..

This just beats me.. Atleast fix the overheating Oleg, please..





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XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 12:38 AM
ok.. This time I really had it.. Lagg-3 really pi*ses me off.. most overmodelled plane in the game.. everything is overmodelled in this plane, climb, armament, sustained turn, max speed, inability to overheat, durability, range...

Question: DOES IT EVER GET FIXXED? I Just wasted 30 min of my time when I tried to chase a Lagg-3 '41 with F-4-. now F_4 should be 30 kmh Faster on Sealevel than Lagg3, but in this game its seriously is not. Lagg-3 can use unlimited time of WEP + radiator closed.. top speed of 490 kmh on sealevel for unlimited time.. is it just me, or THIS just sucks..

I really hope 1.2 will fix this long-time overmodelled plane.. in 1.2RC it was not fixxed, you got the overheating message, but you still could use the engine on full power for unlimited time. And other thing is how this thing turns so damn well, even when we have a special version of Lagg3 with 5 weapons.. shouldn't that make the plane even more heavy, since 2x shkas 2x ubs, 1x Shvak on the nose.. I think that is a heavy weaponload concentrated on the nose.. and still its the most stable gun platform in the game, with 5 weapons on the nose.. such a heavy plane and still turns so well with over 1000 kg lighter plane like Yak-1..

This just beats me.. Atleast fix the overheating Oleg, please..





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XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 01:03 AM
Actually, I had no problems shooting it down. Also, when I flew the LaGG, It overheated within 2.5 minutes of me closing the radiator and putting it at full WEP, the overheat is modeled. It's just that the AI handle their engines better than most of us.

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XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 01:18 AM
I noticed the durability of the Lagg3 was a wee bit reduced with 1.2...easier to shoot down, but it still may be a lil overmodeled. but certainly not as much as the P-39N IMO.

Anyway, as I always say: GREAT GAME

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XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 01:25 AM
Heh, you should try the '43 LaGG....now that one is nasty!!!!

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 05:20 AM
Stiglr wrote:
- Heh, you should try the '43 LaGG....now that one is
- nasty!!!!

Yes, I use to fly the '43 more than anything else. Now, I might as well shoot myself before take off. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 10:13 AM
Oleg said that the LAGG's DM is correct now, therefore no more changes will be made to it. And don't think for a second that AI flown airplanes represents how they behave when flown by a human, well apart from the Yak-3 and La-7 of course/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif , J/K. The LaGG is still one tough bird to down, it sometimes resembles the IL2 actually, IMO.

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XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 11:02 AM
If the DM and FM in Lagg3 is correct, how about the armament. All info supplied by the game says that this
Lagg-3 had 2x 7.62mg 1x 12.7mg and 1x 20mm cannon. When you look at the plane you can see 2+2mg's and one cannon. That is 2x 7.62, 2x 12.7 and 1x 20mm. Obviously there is one 12.7 too much, or has there been some addition in one of the patches, which I have missed?

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 11:36 AM
there were various armament sets for early LaGG series, even with central VYa-23mm.. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
LaGG was maybe the toughest fighter in VVS, Soviets regarded it to be tougher than P40. The problem as I see is that VK-105 engine is modelled too much durable comparing with Allisons, DBs or Merlins - and after several 20mm hits it usually just stops when other inline engines catch fire or even blow up.
it´s FM was much real in original IL-2. Even the Object viewer says "loss of speed in turns" and Soviet Fighter tactics says "not good for turnfighting as it looses too much E, the only way to fight with LaGG is to start with and keep E advantage and good team tactics."



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XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 12:13 PM
Oh, now I found it. It is "clearly" mentioned deep inside the plane history text that it had "one or two BS MGs". No wonder I missed that. Seems like we have that "or two" version and not the one in plane description.

I must agree with Jurinko about energy bleed in sustained turns. I just tested Lagg3-41 with the RC01 version and it lost speed down to 250km/h when I did hard sustained turn, after that I could keep on turning without any problems at 250 speed. It took about 20sec to make a 360deg turn at 250km/h and I did several of them. This was at 200m alt with 110% throttle, radiators closed, default loading, 100% fuel in summer Smolensk. I thought that Lagg-3 would have problems after tight 1080deg turn at 250km/h but it doesn't.

I forgot to use flaps, they make it turn even better, right?



Message Edited on 11/20/0301:31PM by polkku

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 12:26 PM
first LaGGs were not turnfighters as 109Fs turned better, not E fighters as climbed poorly and in dive the speed build-up was poor, and max dive speed was poor.
maybe its armament and ruggedness mad it good for bomber busting. i read somewhere that VVS pilots even under the hard punishment threat were refusing to fly it in Stalingrad battle..
the 66th series from 1943 was much improved.



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XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 12:56 PM
Does LaGG-3 turn better or worse than 109F in the game?

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XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 04:53 PM
.... was the worst fighter of the VVS - a MIG1 with engine on fire is a better fighter IMHO

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 05:02 PM
just an example the p40m should have more power to weight, should out turn, outclimb, the early lag 3 only has one advantage its 2mph faster at sealevel only.

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Message Edited on 11/20/0310:39PM by LeadSpitter_

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 08:13 PM
Let's compare two contemporary planes P-40E and LaGG-3 (1st Series)
=============================
P-40E

Span 37 ft 4 in
Length 31 ft 4 in
Wing Area 236 sq ft
Empty Weight 6,300 lb
Loaded Weight 9,250 lb
Max. Speed 354 mph
Ceiling 29,000 ft
Rate of Climb 2,050 fpm
Range 700 miles
Powerplant Allison V-1710-39 of 1,150 hp
-----------------------------------------
Wingload 39.19 pounds per sq. ft.
Powerload 8.04 pounds per hp.
=============================
LaGG-3 1st series

Span 32 ft 2 in
Length 28 ft 11 in
Wing Area 188.4 sq ft
Empty Weight 5,672 lb
Loaded Weight 7,376 lb
Max. Speed 359 mph (575km/h @ 5000m)
Ceiling 29,835 ft (9100m)
Rate of Climb 2,412 fpm (5000m in 6.8min)
Range 540 miles (870 km)
Powerplant M-105P of 1,050 hp
-----------------------------------------
Wingload 39.15 pounds per sq. ft.
Powerload 7.02 pounds per hp.
=============================

P-40E performance data taken from
http://www.pioneeraero.co.nz/p-40e_version.htm
LaGG-3 serie 1 performance data taken from
http://www.23ag.ru/html/lavochkin_statistika.html

I purposely took LaGG-3 1st series data, because it is basically very close to pre-war/beginning of the war LaGG-3 series 4 we have in the game (and I just can't find data for Series 4). LaGG-3 suffered greatly from wartime deterioration of performance related to evacuation of Soviet aircraft industries, substitution of substandard materials, deterioration of the quality of assembly, but this all happened later. There were other problems with those prewar LaGGs which do not affect us in the game - like unreliable engines and armament, defects with plane's controls, problems with landing gear.
(read more in "Lavochkin's Piston-Engined Fighters" by Yefim Gordon).
But if you compare just stats LaGG-3 looked good compare to P-40.

LaGG-3 series 66 was completely different story - it didn't just look good - it was so much better - there were no comparison, but by that time (1943) Russians were having better planes in production or preparing for it.


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XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 08:24 PM
Stiglr wrote:
- Heh, you should try the '43 LaGG....now that one is
- nasty!!!!



You got that right! I went into a battle against these guys the other day thinking " (LOL...they're flying LaGG 3's! Woot!) Boy was I wrong. In the right hands, they are VERY nasty.




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XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 11:30 PM
I remember the early VEF rounds. At the start, 109F2 vs. LaGG-3 ('41) was a common one. The problem there for us Axis was, the F2's little paint gun couldn't do anything to a LaGG. But at least they were little worry at shooting you down.

Then, as things progressed, we got 109G2s, but they got the '43 LaGGs. They whooped us every which way. They were faster, turned better, *climbed* about the same (making up quite a deficit from earlier versions)...and they were just clearing the skies.

This was all IL-2 1.2, by the way.

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 03:22 PM
jurinko wrote:
- maybe its armament and ruggedness mad it good for
- bomber busting. i read somewhere that VVS pilots
- even under the hard punishment threat were refusing
- to fly it in Stalingrad battle..
- the 66th series from 1943 was much improved.
-
-
-

Yep even its armament is overmodelled, first series standard armament was 2x Shkas 1x UBS or sometimes 2x shkas 1x Shvak.. default armament, what we have in the game for Lagg '41 is 2x shvak 2x UBS 1x shvak


And sorry to say, but in FB 1.11 LAGG3 DOES NOT overheat, if you keep your speed above 400kmh.. that means F-4 DOES NOT run faster than your Lagg3, because F-4 does overheat.. I'M aware that 1.2RC gives 109 some more boost and less overheating, but the Way i saw it, Lagg3 still could runforever for WEP + rad closed in 1.2RC.. Meaning you can't outrun Lagg3 in your F-2, and your max speed is about same in F-4 (when F-4 should be over 30kmh faster on sealevel than Lagg3)..Sure you get the overheating message in 1.2RC, but nothing happened to the engine.. I ran full power for 20 mins, and no damage of anyking in the engine..On the otherhand F-2 outturns Lagg3, but well flown Lagg3'41 can easily outturn 109 F-4, as they have very similar turning perfomance in the game.... I allways have wondered why F-2 is so much more agile, than F-4.. they have same weight, F-4 has bigger engine, but still F-2 turns better..

Lagg3 just does not seem right, since Lagg3 is so much heavier and 1050 hp engine. Lagg3 is the king of the hill on 1941 servers. F-2 is crappy on the other hand, because you have to waste your entire ammunition to down a Lagg3 sometimes. Well Im glad, that Oleg decided to make Lagg3 bit weaker on 1.2, but imho fixing the bloody overheating is much more important. Currently its the only plane, that does not suffer from overheating.





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